Robboman
Fractal Fanatic
I've finally had a chance to do serious A\B and listen critically for differentiation while comparing features and use cases. Trying to decide which to keep. My main purpose here is to see how well the AX8 would perform in the same role as my FX8 - for use with my tube amp\cab in my live rig. Obviously AX8 am modeling is a huge plus for other roles.
I'm not gonna go FULL nerd or get too sciencey, but this will be a long post and I'll share my observations. I still have some dumb questions, and reserve right to make dumb comments. Never claimed to be the sharpest knife, so take this all FWIW.
1). Both units kick major ass.
2). FX8 boots up a bit faster
3). FX8 has a noticeably brighter, better LCD screen.. seems sharper, more yellow while AX8 screen is more greenish. Yes, I played with the contrast, etc.. couldn't match them. VERY minor point, nothing at all wrong with AX8 screen, I just figured they'd look identical and they don't.
4). Absolutely LOVE having those AX8 encoder knobs for amp adjustment.
5). Aside from amp knobs, I'm finding navigating the front panel UI a bit awkward on AX8. All that 'shift' and hold for 'shift lock' so I can navigate grid. Getting used to it.
6). PC editors seem to work flawlessly on both.
7). 4CM configuration more confusing to set up and get working on AX8. FX8 more intuitive.
Now for the important stuff - audio details. What I did was export all the blocks from a couple of my main FX8 presets and then import them into AX8 so that all blocks and settings would be identical. For the 4CM testing, I inserted an fx loop block in the appropriate spot on the grid (no need for that on FX8, it works different). All other global settings default or matched (like in\out levels, EQs, gate, etc).
So, armed with a couple FX-only presets that I felt 'should' sound identical on AX8 or FX8, I connected my amp and listened very carefully...
8). Blocks themselves do indeed sound the same.
9). I get a noticeable 60-cycle hum with either the AX8 or FX8 connected, but only with my one amp on a certain AC outlet. NOT the FAS units fault, it's my amp (specifically the preamp) in my tube head.. no hum elsewhere. I'm only mentioning this because, when the hum-causing condition is present, when I switch the cables from FX8 to AX8 and all else equal.. I get MORE hum on the AX8.
10). FX8 Unity gain - there is no Out1\2 level knobs. It's automatic. If you have all FX blocks off, the level is the same as a cord from you guitar straight to amp. Yes, you can boost or cut levels in each block, or at the Global output, but by default it's 'Unity'. On the AX8, by default sounded close with Out 1 level knob all the way up to max, but not quite. I boosted Global output about .8 or so to match. I'm well aware that louder tends to sound better, so I wanted to be careful to match them before A/B listening.
11). Signal clarity: With all blocks off, FX8 sounds the same to me as True Bypass.. or just a cord straight from guitar to amp, which is really what True bypass is.
To my ears, The AX8 does NOT sound the same. It sounds slightly muffled or muddied. Smeared? It's minor, not something you'd notice unless critically listening. I wouldn't notice in a crowded room or a gig, but I'm sure I could pick it out in a blind test. A\Bed over and over, listened loud with all FX off. Definitely different on AX8. I don't like to say better or worse, and I don't want to label this as 'tone suck'... but if pressed I'd have to say FX8 wins in this scenario.
The question is, why? Is the circuitry really that much audibly better in the more expensive FX8 design? Am I doing something wrong?
Then I remembered the instrument input - "secret sauce" as it's always been called.
Does the FX8 have Secret Sauce? Same as the AX8? Could this be the difference I'm hearing?
I tried plugging my guitar into Input 2 (fx return?) instead of regular Instrument input on the AX8, but I couldn't make it work. I looked at the Input section in AX8 edit to see if I could set it there (nope). I noticed that on the amp block advanced settings you can choose input one or two, but I'm not using an amp block in this case.
12). This difference I describe wasn't really any 'more' different in 4CM vs straight in front, to me not really any more noisey.
I would love to know the secret sauce answer, or other reasons my testing is flawed, or any other ideas. But as of now, if I was only going to use FX blocks (no amp models), I would definitely choose the FX8.
NOW... with all this said, I think I'm keeping the AX8 and changing my live rig. Here's why:
I did one more round of testing..
. AX8 output direct to the loop return on the back of my tube head. I took the same preset and added an amp block, then I went into Global settings and set Power Amp Modelling to disabled. With this setup, The AX8 amp block is replacing the preamp and tonestack in my head, while real tube power is still driving my cab.
It didn't take long before I found an amp model and settings that sounded even better than my real amp's preamp, with way more tweakability. Also, the weird 60-cycle hum my amp does is GONE this way. This is more flexible with all the benefit of 4CM using only one cable. It sounds fantastic - BETTER than my amp. Plus, amp tonestack and level control is now all at my feet on the AX8. Cool! I think this is my way forward for now.
Note: When you use AX8 the normal FR way (full amp\cab modelling into full range speakers) the amps all sound like you expect them to, and you can match an ideal cab in your preset. But when you go this way (modelled preamp only into your real tube power and cab).. you can't expect just any preset or amp to translate, and you can't expect every amp model to sound good. Most models simply won't be a good match for your tube amp\cab, which has it's own unique color that is anything but transparent. The trick here is to find the preamps and tonestacks that ARE a good match.
I'm not gonna go FULL nerd or get too sciencey, but this will be a long post and I'll share my observations. I still have some dumb questions, and reserve right to make dumb comments. Never claimed to be the sharpest knife, so take this all FWIW.
1). Both units kick major ass.
2). FX8 boots up a bit faster
3). FX8 has a noticeably brighter, better LCD screen.. seems sharper, more yellow while AX8 screen is more greenish. Yes, I played with the contrast, etc.. couldn't match them. VERY minor point, nothing at all wrong with AX8 screen, I just figured they'd look identical and they don't.
4). Absolutely LOVE having those AX8 encoder knobs for amp adjustment.
5). Aside from amp knobs, I'm finding navigating the front panel UI a bit awkward on AX8. All that 'shift' and hold for 'shift lock' so I can navigate grid. Getting used to it.
6). PC editors seem to work flawlessly on both.
7). 4CM configuration more confusing to set up and get working on AX8. FX8 more intuitive.
Now for the important stuff - audio details. What I did was export all the blocks from a couple of my main FX8 presets and then import them into AX8 so that all blocks and settings would be identical. For the 4CM testing, I inserted an fx loop block in the appropriate spot on the grid (no need for that on FX8, it works different). All other global settings default or matched (like in\out levels, EQs, gate, etc).
So, armed with a couple FX-only presets that I felt 'should' sound identical on AX8 or FX8, I connected my amp and listened very carefully...
8). Blocks themselves do indeed sound the same.
9). I get a noticeable 60-cycle hum with either the AX8 or FX8 connected, but only with my one amp on a certain AC outlet. NOT the FAS units fault, it's my amp (specifically the preamp) in my tube head.. no hum elsewhere. I'm only mentioning this because, when the hum-causing condition is present, when I switch the cables from FX8 to AX8 and all else equal.. I get MORE hum on the AX8.
10). FX8 Unity gain - there is no Out1\2 level knobs. It's automatic. If you have all FX blocks off, the level is the same as a cord from you guitar straight to amp. Yes, you can boost or cut levels in each block, or at the Global output, but by default it's 'Unity'. On the AX8, by default sounded close with Out 1 level knob all the way up to max, but not quite. I boosted Global output about .8 or so to match. I'm well aware that louder tends to sound better, so I wanted to be careful to match them before A/B listening.
11). Signal clarity: With all blocks off, FX8 sounds the same to me as True Bypass.. or just a cord straight from guitar to amp, which is really what True bypass is.
To my ears, The AX8 does NOT sound the same. It sounds slightly muffled or muddied. Smeared? It's minor, not something you'd notice unless critically listening. I wouldn't notice in a crowded room or a gig, but I'm sure I could pick it out in a blind test. A\Bed over and over, listened loud with all FX off. Definitely different on AX8. I don't like to say better or worse, and I don't want to label this as 'tone suck'... but if pressed I'd have to say FX8 wins in this scenario.
The question is, why? Is the circuitry really that much audibly better in the more expensive FX8 design? Am I doing something wrong?
Then I remembered the instrument input - "secret sauce" as it's always been called.
Does the FX8 have Secret Sauce? Same as the AX8? Could this be the difference I'm hearing?
I tried plugging my guitar into Input 2 (fx return?) instead of regular Instrument input on the AX8, but I couldn't make it work. I looked at the Input section in AX8 edit to see if I could set it there (nope). I noticed that on the amp block advanced settings you can choose input one or two, but I'm not using an amp block in this case.
12). This difference I describe wasn't really any 'more' different in 4CM vs straight in front, to me not really any more noisey.
I would love to know the secret sauce answer, or other reasons my testing is flawed, or any other ideas. But as of now, if I was only going to use FX blocks (no amp models), I would definitely choose the FX8.
NOW... with all this said, I think I'm keeping the AX8 and changing my live rig. Here's why:
I did one more round of testing..
. AX8 output direct to the loop return on the back of my tube head. I took the same preset and added an amp block, then I went into Global settings and set Power Amp Modelling to disabled. With this setup, The AX8 amp block is replacing the preamp and tonestack in my head, while real tube power is still driving my cab.It didn't take long before I found an amp model and settings that sounded even better than my real amp's preamp, with way more tweakability. Also, the weird 60-cycle hum my amp does is GONE this way. This is more flexible with all the benefit of 4CM using only one cable. It sounds fantastic - BETTER than my amp. Plus, amp tonestack and level control is now all at my feet on the AX8. Cool! I think this is my way forward for now.
Note: When you use AX8 the normal FR way (full amp\cab modelling into full range speakers) the amps all sound like you expect them to, and you can match an ideal cab in your preset. But when you go this way (modelled preamp only into your real tube power and cab).. you can't expect just any preset or amp to translate, and you can't expect every amp model to sound good. Most models simply won't be a good match for your tube amp\cab, which has it's own unique color that is anything but transparent. The trick here is to find the preamps and tonestacks that ARE a good match.
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