AX8 Drives

I'm siding slightly with Danny.

It also depends on what your definition of "drive" is. If you're expecting the "amp in a box" pedal in front of a clean amp to sound just as good as a dirty amp...you're fooling yourself.

Drives have their place. They're good for beefing up a clean tone (like the Fulltone Catalyst or Klon). They're good for tightening up a metal amp (TS808 in front of a Dual Rec or 5150).

It all comes down to application and genre.

Thanks for your reply.

What Im looking for is a Drive that sounds good into a clean Fender, Laney or Peavey Amp.

Something that turns a spanky clean sound into a edge of break up Marshall / Vox sound. I have the following pedals that do the job pretty well, OCD, OD3, Mesa Flux Drive, BD2, Wampler Plexi.

Im not a metal guy so the TS808 into the Dual Rec application doesnt apply to me. Im a classic rock guy.

Basically I want to leave my drives at home and use the AX8 as a complete solution wether Im running direct, into an amp, into the effects loop or any combination.

Cheers
 
Thanks for your reply.

What Im looking for is a Drive that sounds good into a clean Fender, Laney or Peavey Amp.

Something that turns a spanky clean sound into a edge of break up Marshall / Vox sound. I have the following pedals that do the job pretty well, OCD, OD3, Mesa Flux Drive, BD2, Wampler Plexi.

Im not a metal guy so the TS808 into the Dual Rec application doesnt apply to me. Im a classic rock guy.

Basically I want to leave my drives at home and use the AX8 as a complete solution wether Im running direct, into an amp, into the effects loop or any combination.

Cheers
the Suhr Riot is perfect for that kind of stuff IMO
 
Yes, Ruckus or BB Pre.

Other forum members have confirmed that both sound exactly like the real pedal.
 
Hey Danny

I appreciate the post. You pull a great sound out of the box and are an inspiration to us all.

I dont mean to be abrasive. I just feel that when I originally posted this, the talk of the update to the drives in Q5 took the heat out of this discussion but the reality is that that not much has really changed in Driveland, as you point out. The drives aren't aren't bad and they are usable, they just dont match my pedals which include Fulltone OCD, Wampler Plexi even Boss OD3. All those pedals sound really good into a clean amp. I like that sound. Im a classic rock guy, more rolling stones than Metallica. More Black Crowes than Black Sabbath!

I have all options available to me and use them all. I love the AX8 into a power amp. Ive also used it with great success in FRFR. All good.

Everyone keeps telling me here to forget the Drives and use the amp models. I get all that and agree the amp models are the best available anywhere. But not many here seem to get what Im actually saying. I am a touring guitarist and use backline amps. My bread and better is to work off a clean bass. I cant tour a FRFR and cant rely on having great gear at the venue. And the drives should be great for the amount of money this unit costs and the awesomeness of everything else in the box. For me its stops the AX8 from being a one stop shop and has me back using different gear for different applications.

I did play around with using the amps as pedals , with some luck, and will continue to go deeper down that path. Its just not as intuitive and simple as switching on a drive.

All good. Dont want to start any fights. I just wish they developers would put the same attention into the drives as they do the amp models. Just till they get them right. Everything else on the AX8 is great.

No animosity here, Jonny. I totally respect your opinion on the matter as well as what you're up against. I would imagine the pedals you have may be better than what you're getting out of the AX8. Either way, there's always that personal preference and as you know, tone will always be subjective no matter what.

Being a beta tester/artist for Fractal, I've put a lot of time into their devices. Like probably more than anything I've ever worked on in my life. Now, that said, I have no personal bias. I'm the first one to jump on and open my mouth when something doesn't blow me away. Cliff has taped my mouth a few times. LOL! But that said, I'm one of the guys that's forever trying to get the best out of these units as well as pushing them as far as they can go. Case in point and the reason I'm saying this...

One of the things that I HATE about the AX8 is the glitch when it changes presets. So you know me...I went on a mission to see if there can be a remedy. I doubt there will ever be a processor update to where this will be fixed...so, let's work with what we have. I started messing with the unit and of course found out the X/Y block changes in the amps are what makes the glitch come to life. This forced me to see if I could create a sound based on just drive blocks alone. I'm a power amp guy...so going through a clean amp isn't something I like. Only because of my past experiences with that....not for any other reason. I got no problems with guys that use this method with success. I just always failed other than 3-4 times.

So anyway, what I figured out with the drive blocks was...they sound really good and I could get anything from classic rock with that little saturation sound, to the big nasty processed tones that I prefer. The only issue with this? I lost the "tube sound" by not using an amp block. But, the glitch was completely fixed and I can even change scenes with AX8 Edit open. That was a breath of fresh air. Ok, so I failed sort of with my first lab work...

But hey, I figured out that without an X/Y change, I still had a good sound and the glitch was gone, right? Ok, so that made me do a hybrid thing. I use an amp for my dirty sounds, and when I go to clean, I bypass the amp. Now, the issue there was...it was TOO clean. I like a little bit of break up, but not a drive breakup. So I changed my compressor block to something with the output a little hotter, turned on the micro drive block or the FET and just added a little sustain so that my clean sound had a little girth and some sustain. Again, it doesn't have drive...it just sounds full and hearty. Now that said, one press of the drive to off position, and it's crystal clean if I need it. Add a little pitch an octave up, and it's a pretty decent 12 string sim.

My point is....I worked extensively with these drive blocks...all of them....to see what worked with what. You have to literally use them and experiment while using other effects as well. Like for example, I always use a compressor block before my drive block which can drive the drive block a little. Should you have to do that? Well, it depends on the sound you want. In a perfect world, we'd love for the drive blocks to just sound like what we want them to. For me, they do for the most part and honest when I tell you, I'm VERY picky with this stuff.

All of the above said, I'd love to see you get into the amp blocks along with the drives. They really do enhance each other in a positive way. I've been so successful with the Fractal stuff, I've gotten rid of all my tube amps but one. I just think with the right direction and the right amount of help or experimentation, and you can really get some good stuff. I know that doesn't help you much since that's just me sharing my personal stuff....but honest man, if you can find the time to get into the amp blocks and the cabs....I think you will be blown away at what you can get. I have about 5 banks of classic rock patches that give you that nice breakup without going over the top. I actually use cab blocks with cab sim on even going through my 25 watt greenback cabs.

Or, If I want to go direct, I have patches that are created to go direct and they sound great too. I did a show with my AX8 where I just used in ears and no cab behind me. It's not quite the same as feeling that cab resonate the stage...but for quickie things or those festivals I play (I'm in a VH tribute band) where there are like 20 bands playing, it sure is nice to just bring my AX8, output into the return on whatever amp they supply, or go right into their snake to the board and I'm done.

On the abrasive comment....I just see people pretty much saying the drive blocks are bad. I'm not against the opinion there, and as you know, I didn't hear a huge difference when they were updated either. BUT....I've always looked at it like this...and this may or may not make sense to anyone but me. LOL!!!

When I bought my AxeFxII, I didn't care if the amps sounded like what they were supposed to or the pedals were identical. Now I get it, it's supposed to be a modeler and accepted as such....and people do want to be as close to the real thing as possible. I get all that. But for me, I wanted to just grab the components and come up with a killer sound.

I can't tell you what the real stuff is that I use in my Fractal gear. One day I have to open up Yek's awesome pdf and see what I'm actually using. LOL! But for me, I just wanted to select what worked and go with the flow, ya know? There are amps in the box that to me don't sound as tube as the real ones I've tried...YET, they have a better sound than the real amp. Other amps, just work for me when in real life, the real amp sounds terrible for me and how I play. So my thing is...I grab the Fractal by the horns and just mess with everything until I get the sound I want. If I end up with some country sound that happens to work for rock or whatever...so be it, ya know? One thing I've done for myself that has been super helpful with this modeling stuff is...I'm more open minded now. Whatever is, just is, as long as it sounds good, ya know?

Anyway....try some of those amps sometime. You may really be happy. The one thing you will pick up that you'll love....some of the amps in the Fractal have a VERY strong 12AX7 presence. When we use pedals into a clean amp, unless you can drive the clean part a little to push the 12AX7 tubes a bit, pedals (in my opinion) make you sound transistor. That there is one of the main reasons I've had issues with clean amps and pedals. With some of the pedals you use for real, it may inject more of that analog tone you are looking for. I think you'll definitely get this with the amp block, a drive and if possible, output to return on your amp bypassing the amp's pre-amp. I've had such great results this way, I guess it makes me a little biased when I hear people can't get the sounds they are looking for.

For what it's worth....I'll try and help you out if you decide to go down this road. It sure won't hurt anything and may even end up being an awesome solution that you like better than just the pedal drives alone. Whatever the case, best of luck. :)
 
I've always wondered the exact same thing. I much prefer a straight amp thumping. And I'd kill for that Mesa Boogie Mark IIC+.
The Mesa MK IIC+ / Simul Class is everything you would expect....completely skewed my view of all other amps. Very tempermental however...sometimes you walk away from a session and your overwhelmed, you'll never touch the knobs again, other times just a complete let down....the humidity, temperature, who knows? When they are good they are great.
And, to take the point about drives a step further; I have also wondered why Fractal wouldn't model the pre-amp section exactly as the amp controls it...by utilizing / adding the same Master, Volume, Lead Master, Lead Drive, and Presence controls as the actual amp, in this case a Mesa MK IIC+. The only thing the AX8 doesn't capture in my opinion is the sustain and versatility of the amp...especially at low volumes. I'm sure other models of great amps in the AX8 fall into the same category as well....especially to people who love and have a working knowledge of the actual amps controls and responsiveness. Otherwise, the AX8 is very, very, close and I Love it.
Just my 2 cents...
 
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this also totally depends on the tones you are after. if you just need one tone, no matter the type, id go amp gain every time. if you need different shades and flavors of the same basic tone you have to have drives, period. there's no right answer, it's how you use them and what you need.

that being said, I have zero issue getting great tones with the drives, and could use 7-8 of them to get the tones i need.
 
I have also wondered why Fractal wouldn't model the pre-amp section exactly as the amp controls it...by utilizing / adding the same Master, Volume, Lead Master, Lead Drive, and Presence controls as the actual amp, in this case a Mesa MK IIC+. The only thing the AX8 doesn't capture in my opinion is the sustain and versatility of the amp...especially at low volumes.

Compressors add sustain, so I'm told. Does the AX8's compressor block do anything to compensate for the sustain you wish were present in that amp model, @LancerS?
 
The compressor on the AX8 helps sustain for sure...but that naturally compressed tube sustain is a piece of the puzzle that I don't think modeling will physically be capable of...it is a glorious thing which can really inspire us. Having said that, if the pre-amp / controls section of the particular amp (Mesa Mk IIc+ / Simul-class) were modeled more precisely, it could be a lot closer...I think....Randall Smith would probably beg to differ....Lol:)
In the end it is in the ear of the musician and an extremely personal thing with no right or wrongs like jlynnb1 said.
 
We're way OT...

The Mesa MK IIC+ / Simul Class is everything you would expect....completely skewed my view of all other amps. Very tempermental however...sometimes you walk away from a session and your overwhelmed, you'll never touch the knobs again, other times just a complete let down....the humidity, temperature, who knows? When they are good they are great.
I hear ya man... most tube amps are that way.

The only thing the AX8 doesn't capture in my opinion is the sustain and versatility of the amp...especially at low volumes.[...] Otherwise, the AX8 is very, very, close and I Love it.
The Mark IIC+ in the AX8 is one the things that give it the edge over the Kemper IMHO. That amp with the right IR (in my case, a EVM 12L) is just glorious.

... okay, back to "Drives" talk...
 
Just chipping in with my .02c
I'm a new user, Haven't had a huge amount of time to dive in deep and set up my FRFR tones. With a gig on the weekend, I set my AX 8 up as a constructed pedal board. I was using the Rat and Timothy models along with delays etc into my Fender SS60 on the clean channel. For a rushed set up I was very happy with drives.
 
...that naturally compressed tube sustain is a piece of the puzzle that I don't think modeling will physically be capable of...
I must respectfully disagree. IMO, the compression/sustain part of the equation is one of the less challenging aspects of tube amp modeling and has been pretty much nailed.
 
Rex,
Are you telling me that the AX8 sustains as good as a real Mesa MK IIC+ / Simul class? I have the actual amp and physically for a number of reasons it's not going to happen...you might squeeze the the signal with a compressor but sorry my friend...it ain't the same physics as 5 - 12ax7's on top of 4 - 6L6's....Please don't misunderstand...I LOVE the AX8....LOVE IT; I also adore the MK IIC+ which most everyone on here uses as a preset...when you can get the AX8 to sustain at low volumes naturally let's hear it....when you can get the AX8 / MK IIc++ to feedback under control and cascade into multiple octaves at higher volumes and then roll off the volume and get your guitar to clean up almost like an acoustic....please, send me the preset.
 
...when you can get the AX8 to sustain at low volumes naturally let's hear it...
What do you define as low volume? At low enough volume, nothing will sustain or feed back. At high enough volume, everything will.

The feedback/sustain equation is all about loop gain: gain at the amp, speaker efficiency and pattern, room response, sensitivity of the guitar to sound fields, and overall volume. Multiply them all together. If the result approaches a value of 1, you get sustain. When the result is greater than 1, you get feedback. This works for Mesas, Marshalls, and solid-state amps, too.

If you can't get sustain or singing feedback from your gear, it means that one or more if the factors I listed in the preceding paragraph is getting in your way.
 
it's possible to get sustaining feedback with an acoustic guitar or clean electric at the right volumes.
 
Rex,
Are you telling me that the AX8 sustains as good as a real Mesa MK IIC+ / Simul class? I have the actual amp and physically for a number of reasons it's not going to happen...you might squeeze the the signal with a compressor but sorry my friend...it ain't the same physics as 5 - 12ax7's on top of 4 - 6L6's....Please don't misunderstand...I LOVE the AX8....LOVE IT; I also adore the MK IIC+ which most everyone on here uses as a preset...when you can get the AX8 to sustain at low volumes naturally let's hear it....when you can get the AX8 / MK IIc++ to feedback under control and cascade into multiple octaves at higher volumes and then roll off the volume and get your guitar to clean up almost like an acoustic....please, send me the preset.
this is all about volume and what the Axe is being played through. what are you playing your Mesa through? at least compare apples to apples
 
Controlled feedback is a dividend of the kind pf sustain you can achieve at volumes no louder than the average human voice which was my point. If you crank up the presence, volume, lead master, and most importantly...the lead drive on a Mesa MK IIC+ / Simul class with the master volume just above zero you are achieving a naturally tube compressed sustain that you will not find in the box...end of story. I am talking about a combo amp through a single 200 watt EVM12L speaker.

The point is that as good as the AX8 replicates the MK IIC+ sound, it does not allow you to control the preamp the way I just described, which, my friends is the way Randall Smith designed the circuit to work...he also threw in that channel switching thing that everyone copied afterwards for good measure. The simultaneous use of the class A triode with the Class A/B Pentode circuit / power amp section completes a very complex and highly sought after amp that can cover anything you want to dial up. Turn the treble knob from 6.5 to 7...you will hear the difference, turn the volume and lead drive down from 7.5 to 4 and hello Stevie Ray. If you have ever played one of these amps you know what I am talking about...there is a reason why the new Mesa Mark V has the MK IIC+ Circuit.

I surely do not want to come off as some kind of Mesa purist snob....but this whole discussion of drives kind of opened the door about preamp shaping which is what drives are for, which has always made me wonder why Fractal doesn't model the actual pre-amp / gain structure which is only achieved on the actual amp by shaping and manipulating the master volume, volume, lead master, lead drive, and presence controls, which will yield epic results. Adding a drive to an amp like this would be like having an automatic transmission on a Ferrari. Believe me, if the AX8 tone controls were set up for this way, for this amp, you would notice the difference in versatility and responsiveness.

Great discussion!
 
Controlled feedback is a dividend of the kind pf sustain you can achieve at volumes no louder than the average human voice...
I guess I've never heard that from any amp.


If you crank up the presence, volume, lead master, and most importantly...the lead drive on a Mesa MK IIC+ / Simul class with the master volume just above zero you are achieving a naturally tube compressed sustain that you will not find in the box...
With Volume and Lead Master cranked, nudging the Master up from zero will quickly drive the amp louder than human conversation. :)


Controlled feedback is a dividend of the kind pf sustain you can achieve at volumes no louder than the average human voice...
I guess I've never heard that from any amp.


Great discussion!
Indeed.
 
when you can get the AX8 to sustain at low volumes naturally let's hear it....when you can get the AX8 / MK IIc++ to feedback under control and cascade into multiple octaves at higher volumes and then roll off the volume and get your guitar to clean up almost like an acoustic....please, send me the preset.

Mmm sounds like some lab work for me. Let me take a shot at it. I've had some awesome luck with sustain and feedback with low volumes as well as the cleanup with the volume knob.

I usually accomplish this with the assistance of a compressor and then back it down via expression pedal if need be. Just curious LancerS, you mentioned a few different sounds from pro artists in this thread. Which do you feel is the hardest to get using the AX8 vs. your real amp?

I've really leaned on the drive blocks and the compressor to get me where I need to be with any amp in the Fractal line up. The compressor is what usually helps give me that sustain you're talking about and the drive tightens it up with a bit more zip. I don't over use either of them.

(I have two compressor videos that I've shared that show you how to get some mean sustain out of it...may be helpful.)

But give me a few examples on tones you're looking for. I seriously want to see if any of my methods may help things a little.

And by the way, I think what you offered here by way of your personal experience is super helpful. You never know when Cliff may read something like what you wrote, try some things out, have a Ecliffany (that's what I call his epiphanies these days lol) and he changes things around. You know how passionate he is about the stuff. ;)

Laying it out like you did tells it the way you experienced it and you explained it well. Feedback like that in my opinion is what helps to feed the Fractal machine to excellence.

Whenever someone shares an opinion and gives examples without being a pompous dick....those are the opinions that have the most value. I sure do appreciate them when they are delivered like that....so you have at least one new fan! :)
 
Controlled feedback is a dividend of the kind pf sustain you can achieve at volumes no louder than the average human voice which was my point. If you crank up the presence, volume, lead master, and most importantly...the lead drive on a Mesa MK IIC+ / Simul class with the master volume just above zero you are achieving a naturally tube compressed sustain that you will not find in the box...end of story. I am talking about a combo amp through a single 200 watt EVM12L speaker.

The point is that as good as the AX8 replicates the MK IIC+ sound, it does not allow you to control the preamp the way I just described, which, my friends is the way Randall Smith designed the circuit to work...he also threw in that channel switching thing that everyone copied afterwards for good measure. The simultaneous use of the class A triode with the Class A/B Pentode circuit / power amp section completes a very complex and highly sought after amp that can cover anything you want to dial up. Turn the treble knob from 6.5 to 7...you will hear the difference, turn the volume and lead drive down from 7.5 to 4 and hello Stevie Ray. If you have ever played one of these amps you know what I am talking about...there is a reason why the new Mesa Mark V has the MK IIC+ Circuit.

I surely do not want to come off as some kind of Mesa purist snob....but this whole discussion of drives kind of opened the door about preamp shaping which is what drives are for, which has always made me wonder why Fractal doesn't model the actual pre-amp / gain structure which is only achieved on the actual amp by shaping and manipulating the master volume, volume, lead master, lead drive, and presence controls, which will yield epic results. Adding a drive to an amp like this would be like having an automatic transmission on a Ferrari. Believe me, if the AX8 tone controls were set up for this way, for this amp, you would notice the difference in versatility and responsiveness.

Great discussion!

What did you play your Ax8 thru? Were you playing thru the same speaker with a flat power amp? Guitar speakers are very beamy and your tonal result will depend a lot on the room and where you stand relative to the speaker.
 
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