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Attention all SRV Tone Experts!

Gamedojo

Power User
Just to be clear, are you saying that in one 40 watt SR, he would have had at least 4 200 watt speakers(possibly more if using 300w JBLs), totalling 800 watts or more? That seems like quite the mis-match?
I don't quite follow what you mean by "miss-match". I think you might be confusing wattage with resistance.

You can use any high wattage speaker with any guitar amp. There is no need to match wattage rating to amp wattage. in fact, if you run a 50watt speaker with a 50watt rated amp, you will probably blow the speaker since amps produce more actual wattage then their rating (long story why...)

Ohms (or resistance) is what is important to match. A 2ohm super reverb transformer wants to see 2ohms. This means FOUR 8ohm speakers wired in parallel. Or an 8ohm vibroverb transformer wants to see a single 8ohm speaker (or in the case of SRV, he used 4ohm bassman transformers in his vibroverbs which DID cause a missmatch... a big part of his sound IMO)

I ran a 67 super reverb into a quad of 300watt EVM-10M speakers (thats 1200 rated watts) for 5 years of gigging. Amazing sound. Eliminating ANY speaker distortion gives MUCH better sound from my point of view.
 

barhrecords

Axe-Master
I don't quite follow what you mean by "miss-match". I think you might be confusing wattage with resistance.

You can use any high wattage speaker with any guitar amp. There is no need to match wattage rating to amp wattage. in fact, if you run a 50watt speaker with a 50watt rated amp, you will probably blow the speaker since amps produce more actual wattage then their rating (long story why...)

Ohms (or resistance) is what is important to match. A 2ohm super reverb transformer wants to see 2ohms. This means FOUR 8ohm speakers wired in parallel. Or an 8ohm vibroverb transformer wants to see a single 8ohm speaker (or in the case of SRV, he used 4ohm bassman transformers in his vibroverbs which DID cause a missmatch... a big part of his sound IMO)

I ran a 67 super reverb into a quad of 300watt EVM-10M speakers (thats 1200 rated watts) for 5 years of gigging. Amazing sound. Eliminating ANY speaker distortion gives MUCH better sound from my point of view.
This^

That's what I was wondering in my earlier post.

In the AxeFx if the Super amp model has a virtual 2ohm rating like real amp, does an IR from an 8ohm cab for example, sound like an 8ohm speaker load on the real output tranny?

Or maybe in the virtual world it doesn't matter?
 

DukeOfPrunes

Experienced
I don't quite follow what you mean by "miss-match". I think you might be confusing wattage with resistance.

You can use any high wattage speaker with any guitar amp. There is no need to match wattage rating to amp wattage. in fact, if you run a 50watt speaker with a 50watt rated amp, you will probably blow the speaker since amps produce more actual wattage then their rating (long story why...)

Ohms (or resistance) is what is important to match. A 2ohm super reverb transformer wants to see 2ohms. This means FOUR 8ohm speakers wired in parallel. Or an 8ohm vibroverb transformer wants to see a single 8ohm speaker (or in the case of SRV, he used 4ohm bassman transformers in his vibroverbs which DID cause a missmatch... a big part of his sound IMO)

I ran a 67 super reverb into a quad of 300watt EVM-10M speakers (thats 1200 rated watts) for 5 years of gigging. Amazing sound. Eliminating ANY speaker distortion gives MUCH better sound from my point of view.
Very interesting. I always thought that if there was too much of a gap between the amp wattage and the speaker wattage at a matched resistance, this could damage the speakers. In as much as if you use too much amp wattage in too little speaker wattage, you may blow the speakers, conversly, if you use too little wattage in too much speaker wattage, this would also damage the speaker, since the speakers are starving.

But proof is in the pudding, since you have a real life example of running a 67 SR for 5 years with no damage.
 
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Gamedojo

Power User
This^

That's what I was wondering in my earlier post.

In the AxeFx if the Super amp model has a virtual 2ohm rating like real amp, does an IR from an 8ohm cab for example, sound like an 8ohm speaker load on the real output tranny?

Or maybe in the virtual world it doesn't matter?
Virtual world it doesn't QUITE work the same. The IR capture does not carry with it a resistance rating. Therefor every Speaker block and every Amp block are perfectly matched when you hook them up. to SIMULATE a miss-match, go to the "Transformer Match" parameter and adjust. default is "1". Setting it to 2 = a double missmatch (i.e. 4ohm transformer into a 8ohm speaker)
 

Gamedojo

Power User
Man ... It hurts just reading this

That, my good man, is called "paying your dues"! :)... One thing I DID do was to put the EVMs into their separate 4x10 cabinet. The speakers INSIDE of a super reverb with chassis and everything is too heavy for one man to lift!
 

barhrecords

Axe-Master
Virtual world it doesn't QUITE work the same. The IR capture does not carry with it a resistance rating. Therefor every Speaker block and every Amp block are perfectly matched when you hook them up. to SIMULATE a miss-match, go to the "Transformer Match" parameter and adjust. default is "1". Setting it to 2 = a double missmatch (i.e. 4ohm transformer into a 8ohm speaker)
Cool!

So set transformer match to 4 with the Super model and the 4x12 Dumble EV cab.

2ohm tranny with an 8ohm load. Is the Dumble cab 16ohms? if so, then set the transformer match to 8.
 

Gamedojo

Power User
Cool!

So set transformer match to 4 with the Super model and the 4x12 Dumble EV cab.

2ohm tranny with an 8ohm load. Is the Dumble cab 16ohms? if so, then set the transformer match to 8.
I THINK every number is doubling...so

1 = 2 into 2
2 = 2 into 4
3 = 2 into 8
4 = 2 into 16

BUuuuut..i'm not exactly sure why you would want to do this. In the real world mismatching more then one up or down is dangerous for the amp and would blow either the tubes (matched down) or blow a transformer (matched up) if you go to that extreme. You can obviously experiment...but no real world player would have done this because its not a stable scenario.
 

kkolb71

Inspired
SRV didn't like speaker breakup. That's why he used 200w and 300w JBL and EV speakers with his 50 watt fenders.

In fact, He didn't really like distortion at all and was always battling trying to get the sustain and thickness but with a clean tone (Hence his tendency to move towards Dumble 200watt amps later).

The trick to his tone is that He played a heavily distorted amp and a 100% clean amp all the time. Thats why his tone is so difficult for most because you simply can't nail it with only one amp. If you have a distorted amp, there is no clarity and no punch. If you only use a clean amp you get no harmonics or sustain/compression.

He also used a LOT of treble. Its a hard balance to control. FWIW, I think chasing El Macombo tone is a fool's errand. That tone relies heavily on the room along with the possibility that his amps were probably mic'd from behind (which would need a special IR capture).... but its the room vibe that gives that tone most of its sound. I bet if you look at the master recording, 80% of the tone you hear is the bleed from the other mics on stage especially his vocal mic.

Other important tricks:
•mismatched output transformers
• Solid state rectifiers (much less supply sag)
• TS9 (no famous recordings are of his 808 years...)
•*No gain on TS9 max level and tone control
•*JBL speakers ARE his tone. His tone suffered greatly when he moved to EVs in my opinion

Here are a few of my SRV tone attempts with the AXE:

FW10 Tin Pan Alley

FW7.0 Coldshot

FW7.0 Couldn't Stand Weather

FW6.0 Voodoo Chile
Great insight and awesome presets. Thanks
 

austinbuddy

Fractal Fanatic
Vendor
Tyler Grund has nailed the SRV tone better than any I've heard so far in forum land and he bears listening to. He has the Cab IR for the E130 speaker and I found his clever preset with one completely clean amp running parallel to one that had the tube scream grit (not drive, really just a a single coil pickup+ mid boost) to be ingenious. The tone is in the AXE II, IF you can play like SRV (LOL).

I also think strings and pickups matter some, that 11's are going to get much closer than 09s are for sure, it's the way they interact/signal strength to the single coils.

Last, unlike 90% of players Stevie just ATTACKED AND MAULED the guitar strings physically and wanted instant response (and it's why he did not like tube rectifiers and had them replaced). Mr. Dumble was quoted somewhere how Stevie did tried to play a Dumble Overdrive Special and hated it, it had sag and squish to it...hence the Steel String Singer built for SRV played through EVL 4x12s (which I had the pleasure of hearing live and up close early 1980's in New Orleans SRV gig) which we all hope one day Cliff gets his hands on a real one to MIMIC for us.... SRV's was 150 watts with 6550 tubes, most SSSingers are 100 watts with 6L6s...

I will add though IMHO that the AXE II JTM45 if properly set up can get you close to that clean but grit tube-y goodness that goes with strats especially on neck pickup...check out my Doyle Bramhall II preset on Axe Change and tweak it, it's a little warmer (speakers) than SRV but has that BIG Strat sound...

Great thread!
 
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DukeOfPrunes

Experienced
Tyler Grund has nailed the SRV tone better than any I've heard so far in forum land and he bears listening to. He has the Cab IR for the E130 speaker and I found his clever preset with one completely clean amp running parallel to one that had the tube scream grit (not drive, really just a a single coil pickup+ mid boost) to be ingenious. The tone is in the AXE II, IF you can play like SRV (LOL).

I also think strings and pickups matter some, that 11's are going to get much closer than 09s are for sure, it's the way they interact/signal strength to the single coils.

Last, unlike 90% of players Stevie just ATTACKED AND MAULED the guitar strings physically and wanted instant response (and it's why he did not like tube rectifiers and had them replaced). Mr. Dumble was quoted somewhere how Stevie did tried to play a Dumble Overdrive Special and hated it, it had sag and squish to it...hence the Steel String Singer built for SRV played through EVL 4x12s (which I had the pleasaue or hearing live and up close early 1980's in New Orleans SRV gig) which we all hope one day Cliff gets his hands on a real one to MIMIC for us.... SRV's was 150 watts with 6550 tubes, most SSSingers are 100 watts with 6L6s...

I will add though IMHO that the AXE II JTM45 if properly set up can get you close to that clean but grit tube-y goodness that goes with strats especially on neck pickup...check out my Doyle Bramhall II preset on Axe Change and tweak it, it's a little warmer (speakers) than SRV but has that BIG Strat sound...

Great thread!
+1

Yes, first time I loaded Tyler's patches is the first time I could really hear a close representation of SRV's sound in my man cave, something which has eluded me for 20 years...

Tyler, thanks for the patches and the time you put into constructing them to be faithfull representations of the rigs you emulate.
 
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guitarmike

Experienced
I think the chip was the RC45??
The jrc4558 chip is famous with the ts's. But, the distortion comes from 2 silicon 1n914 diodes located in the feedback path of the 4558 chip. To make it a clean boost you would have to remove them completely. I have never heard of anyone doing this although it certainly is possible. The signal output would be huge - most definitely over driving the rest of the circuit.
The ts808 has a slightly different output section than the ts9; that is the only difference between the two pedals and either is capable of "clean gain" without modification. There is a ton of hype about that jrc4558 chip, by the way.
I have always used the ts with volume 100%, tone 0-25%, and distortion at 0-25%. This gives just a hint of distortion and a pretty good boost with the treble rolled off. Great to fatten up and drive an almost dirty amp into full lead guitar mode. I am pretty sure this is essentially much how SRV used the pedal. Fwiw...
 

tomc3084

Experienced
I think a ton of SRVs tone was in his fingers, and in those giant strings. I have tried using 12's tuned to e flat and it was so hard to play.
 

Randy4Guitars

Power User
13s on a strat scale are tight and you need to work at it.

Jazz guys play those thick strings but have a shorter scale usually, and they have extra length behind the bridge. Less tension because of more string length, imho.

Also, I think thick strings are more for vibrating wood, but who knows if they interact differently with the pickups (than a thinner string).
 
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flyingfadr

Power User
The jrc4558 chip is famous with the ts's. But, the distortion comes from 2 silicon 1n914 diodes located in the feedback path of the 4558 chip. To make it a clean boost you would have to remove them completely. I have never heard of anyone doing this although it certainly is possible. The signal output would be huge - most definitely over driving the rest of the circuit.
The ts808 has a slightly different output section than the ts9; that is the only difference between the two pedals and either is capable of "clean gain" without modification. There is a ton of hype about that jrc4558 chip, by the way.
I have always used the ts with volume 100%, tone 0-25%, and distortion at 0-25%. This gives just a hint of distortion and a pretty good boost with the treble rolled off. Great to fatten up and drive an almost dirty amp into full lead guitar mode. I am pretty sure this is essentially much how SRV used the pedal. Fwiw...
Wow... You guys know Wayyyy too dang much ! ;-)
 
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