Atomic, Matrix, Power-Engine, RCF etc.

T

Taco

Member
Hi guys,

I'm playing my Axe-FX 2 only through headphones and/or directly through my "big" PA (Yamaha 03D Digital Mixer, QSC K-Sub + 2 QSC K-10). I use the headphones not to bother my family at home, and although the sounds are okay and quite similar to what I get out of my PA, I don't really like using them (I absolutely get no guitar amp "feel"). Although playing through my PA gives me a very satisfying sound, again it's not a guitar amp feel, but that's not really the issue.

I'm looking for an amp-cab combination that would allow my to get decent sounds at a little over bedroom level, just for practice, instead of powering on and using my complete PA.

I've been reading some stuff on this forum and elsewhere about FRFR systems and amp-cab combinations people seem to be happy with, but apart from the Tech21 Power Engine or Atomic Reactor which seem to be reasonably powered, I'm still afraid that it's way too much and too loud for me . . . In addition the power-engine has a guitar speaker in it, no ? Therefor not being a recommended FRFR system ?

RCF, Matrix, QSC K12 etc etc. really are an overkill for me, I think.

Initially I thought of using studio monitors (I tried my Yamaha MSP-5s which at low levels sound OK to me, but as soon as push them a little, they're out), but I'm afraid that even with bigger and more powerful units, the result will be the same.

So I started thinking of a 20Wattish like combo, in order to get a similar volume level (and guitar amp feel) than on a 20W tube guitar amp combo . . . Wouldn't a small Keyboard Amp/Cab Combo be the ideal solution ? As it is supposed to be FRFR ? And with a 12'' speaker (and probably a tweeter) . . . I should get decent sounds at "my" desired volume, no ?

While we're at it, I never understood why a 20W all tube guitar combo with a 10 or 12'' speaker is way louder than a 40 or even 100W Hifi System with 10 or 12'' speakers. Or why it is much louder than 40W powered monitor speakers . . . Can anybody explain ?

Thanks,

Taco
 
Without a doubt - get some decent studio monitors, they'll have plenty of volume for bedroom and at least moderate living room playing.
Many choices out there for monitors, decide on a budget, research the market within that budget and go listen to them.
 
The K10 has dual inputs. Just plug into the second side and you are good to go ;)
At least try it-you already have a set.
 
Taco said:
While we're at it, I never understood why a 20W all tube guitar combo with a 10 or 12'' speaker is way louder than a 40 or even 100W Hifi System with 10 or 12'' speakers. Or why it is much louder than 40W powered monitor speakers . . . Can anybody explain ?

Thanks,

Taco
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There are a few factors, as mentioned above tube amps are capable of more overall output than SS due to the desirable distortion characteristics.

The electric guitar for the most part has a limited frequency response. If you pick any popular classic guitar combo, LP or Strat, Marshall or Fender, and use RTA of the real amp in the room you will see usually a "hump" response centered somewhere around 400hz - 500hz. Very little content below 100hz or above 2k. So the amp's output voltage and speakers are used entirely for this relatively narrow band of frequencies.

FRFR, whether PA or studio monitors ideally have a flat response, for example from 50hz - 15Khz. Both the amp and drivers are capable of reproducing lower and higher frequencies vs. the guitar amp. Additionally, it requires an exponential increase in amp power to produce lower frequencies - depending on the driver used, it can require 10x the power to output 50hz at the same volume as 100hz. The woofer has an excursion limit called XMax, which is the distance that the cone can travel - it must move 4x the distance to reach one octave lower.

Guitar amp speakers generally have a low Xmax and high Fs compared to PA/studio drivers. All of the hype you read about 4x12 guitar cabs "pushing a lot of air" is not technically correct - most guitar cab drivers have around 1mm or less of Xmax, a single FR 12 with 6mm Xmax moves a greater volume of air. The misconception is that the "chest thumping" and "seat pant dusting" effects come from very low frequencies, it's actually somewhere between 100hz - 200hz for guitar.
 
I'll give you my two cents about my particular setup/needs and hopefully you'll find something valuable:

When I first got my Axe-FX II, I played thru headphones and did not like it at all. I mean it is nice to hear the different tones, etc. but like you mentioned, is not the same as having something pushing a speaker. So then I picked up a Mosvalve MV-962 solid state power amp for like $90. I have two Marshall cabs that I play thru and they give me a great stereo sound and can be turned down really low volume.

I know I can do better than just the Mosvalve so I was shopping for other solutions. I got a Rocktron Velocity 300 power amp. I know others have used it with great success but I hated it. I disliked that amp so much that I packed it up and sent it back the next day. I knew immediately that the tone was not for me. Too harsh in my opinion. So a few days I ago, I decided to try the studio monitor route to take full advantage of the amp and cab sims (right now I have both turned off with my current setup). I ended up getting two KRK Rokit 5's. Although they sounded ok, I am returning them this weekend. There is something missing that doesn't get me inspired like my current setup.

My plan is to get a Matrix GT1000FX or GT800FX. I've come to the conclusion that I like the sound of the Axe-FX II thru a power amp and speakers. There are some cool clips of Pete Thorn playing both Matrix power amps into a small Bogner speaker cab (I think it is one 12 inch speaker). Anyway, sounds great! The best part with the Axe-FX II is that you can turn waaaayyyy down and you don't lose tone like you would with a real tube amp. I play whisper quiet and somewhat loud in my basement with my setup and sounds great at any volume.

The Matrix amps are the one thing I haven't heard negative reviews of. Everyone seems to love those amps. Some of the other brands, etc. people seem to go one way or the other with. You gotta decide how much you want to spend and then go from there. For me, I think I need to stay with the amp/cab setup. Hope this helps man!
 
romanianreaper said:
The best part with the Axe-FX II is that you can turn waaaayyyy down and you don't lose tone like you would with a real tube amp. I play whisper quiet and somewhat loud in my basement with my setup and sounds great at any volume.
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In my experience: while the Axe sounds more like itself than other gear at low, low volumes, the frequency response of your speaker(s) (and I think this is exactly what Rick is expressing in his RCF posts) is somewhat different than at medium+ . The quality and design of your speakers will further illuminate.
 
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Tubed to Life said:
In my experience: while the Axe sounds more like itself than other gear at low, low volumes, the frequency response (and I think this is exactly what Rick is expressing in his RCF posts) is still somewhat different than at medium+ . The most obvious circumstance being medium to high gain.
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Are you saying that the Axe-FX II works best in a medium volume scenario?
 
Thanks for the great replies and explanations . . . I'll try again with my K10 (I had in the past, but for some reason I don't remember, I hadn't really liked it), but even though, for me it's not a very handy solution, as the K10 are fully wired, connected and setup in the basement, and not that easy to (re)move. I'll also try for some other monitors . . . I just need to find the time doing some research and getting/testing them . . . But if I read your posts correctly, nobody really seems to recommend a small KB amp . . . Okay, advice taken.

Back to matrix, K10, RCF etc. and speakers pushing air . . . I have always had the feeling (without being able to explain or prove it), that a speaker has to be well adapted to the power output of the amp . . . In that sens, in my opinion a speaker of a 300W system, played at bedroom or living room level (5-10-20W ?), is not pushed to give it's best performance and sound, no ? It would if you were playing really loud let's say at 200W of the amps output . . . A speaker matched to a 20W amp, would/should work optimally at 10-20W levels, no ? And to take full advantage of the Axe-FX speaker simulations you'd need a FRFR system, and that's why I was thinking of a small KB combo, but possibly well suited monitors could/would be more appropriate, so I'll investigate in that direction a bit more . . . As mentioned in my initial post, I think that Matrix solutions etc. are an overkill for me . . . In addition, what I forgot to mention, is that I'd love to have something reasonably small and easily transportable. Cheers and once again thanks for the great replies.
 
Taco said:
Thanks for the great replies and explanations . . . I'll try again with my K10 (I had in the past, but for some reason I don't remember, I hadn't really liked it), but even though, for me it's not a very handy solution, as the K10 are fully wired, connected and setup in the basement, and not that easy to (re)move. I'll also try for some other monitors . . . I just need to find the time doing some research and getting/testing them . . . But if I read your posts correctly, nobody really seems to recommend a small KB amp . . . Okay, advice taken.

Back to matrix, K10, RCF etc. and speakers pushing air . . . I have always had the feeling (without being able to explain or prove it), that a speaker has to be well adapted to the power output of the amp . . . In that sens, in my opinion a speaker of a 300W system, played at bedroom or living room level (5-10-20W ?), is not pushed to give it's best performance and sound, no ? It would if you were playing really loud let's say at 200W of the amps output . . . A speaker matched to a 20W amp, would/should work optimally at 10-20W levels, no ? And to take full advantage of the Axe-FX speaker simulations you'd need a FRFR system, and that's why I was thinking of a small KB combo, but possibly well suited monitors could/would be more appropriate, so I'll investigate in that direction a bit more . . . As mentioned in my initial post, I think that Matrix solutions etc. are an overkill for me . . . In addition, what I forgot to mention, is that I'd love to have something reasonably small and easily transportable. Cheers and once again thanks for the great replies.
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Speakers have a power rateing, and if a combo or speaker system is designed proberly then the speaker max power handling is greater than the systems max power so you won't blow up the speakers. The speakers sweet spot is an entirely different thing (!). While all good guitar speakers are designed to move air (and not for bedroom volumen) some speakers sounds best driven hard (EV12L) where others sound better driven more moderately, some speakers can sound just ok at low volumes but generally good guitar speakers sound a but dead and thin when they are not moving air.
IMHO all (good) guitar speaker sounds their best when there are driven clearly past bedroom volumes - so that option would be out of the equation for me if I was in your position.
Since you'd rather not move your K10 form the setup in the basement, I stand by my initial post about getting some studio speakers, as that will give you many advantages over a traditional amp + cab setup.
Some of the advantages are:

1) FRFR - Great sound quality at very low to at least medium volumes
2) FRFR - means your patches should translate well when you are playing your Axe through your FRFR set-up in the basement or on stage.
3) Small size and easy to move around
4) Great for getting into recording and mixing
5) Great for listening to other stuff off your computer ( iTunes and watching movies )

Hope this helps
RB
 
A typical guitarspeaker has a sensitivity around 100db at 1W. So already 1W is far too loud for the bedroom. If a speaker ist designed for 100W or 10W doesn't say much about the power it initially needs to come alive. If ever there is any basic rule about it I'd say smaller speakers need to play less loud to sound right...but there are always some that are not typical.
 
I've used a Tech 21 PowerWedge 60 and it's an ok solution. Sounds best when run pretty high. I'd think a decent studio monitor would be your best bet. They'll be plenty loud and will sound best since you're already dialing patches FRFR.
 
I've fought this myself.. playing at home has always been an issue with respect to volume vs. tone. I bought the Axe FX II mainly for this purpose- and it does work well in that respect, although I don't think there's anyway to get the interaction and feel, etc. that I'm used to without playing at a somewhat high(er) volume.

It think it does depend on the sound or tone your going for and also how developed you are as a player. I tend to like vintage type amps with/without pedals and I don't typically play master volume amps. So pushing the power stage of the amp and getting the speakers moving to react as well is a big part of that approach. I took the approach long ago of trying to match the amp to the situation, so a Princeton Reverb or tweed deluxe may work well with the right room and right drummer where another situation requires something bigger. At home in my room where my gear stays, a Vibro Champ with a beefy alnico speaker is more than enough. Even that amp gets way too loud once I kick in a compressor and/or drive pedal, etc.

I've been running the Axe through some Yamaha monitors (HS50's and NS10's depending on what's not loaned out) and it works reasonably well for the small(esh) room they're in. Concrete floors help make things a little more lively with no carpet to absorb the sound. Not perfect though.. I can easily kill these monitors getting carried away with volume (which is typical) and they don't have the low end response of a typical guitar amp (of course). But they sound fairly good and I know what their limits are and don't expect anything more.

I kind of wondering if the monitors that Jay Mitchell has helped design might actually turn out to be fairly versatile with respect to volume. I think a really well designed speaker can sometimes do this.. i.e. they have a broader range on teh sweet spot.

My guess though that nothing will quite get there like turning things up... what I'm really looking for is a huge room, well designed for sound (like some of the studio's I've been in here in the Austin area) to play in... like a nice barn. I need a lot nicer pay check though before that happens.
 
Mark Day has a great video online where he is playing thru desktop monitors and getting an awesome tone. I can't remember which brand but sounds great. My KRKs just didn't do anything for me.
 
My "final" solution

Hi guys, just to let you know that I gave it a try with my Yamaha MSP-5 Monitors again, and though not perfect (some patches even though no clipping occurs anywhere in th Axe-FX, seem to give some kind of weird saturation noises on the MSP-5s running "only" at 50% of their maximum volume . . . I don't here it on the headphones or my K10s), it's more than enough for what I need (and much cheaper as I won't need to buy anything). I'm just looking for some easy system to be able to move the stuff around in one go, keeping everything connected . . .

Attached you'll find 2 pictures of the rig in my living room (sorry for the bad quality)

Cheers,

Taco
 

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Taco said:
Hi guys, just to let you know that I gave it a try with my Yamaha MSP-5 Monitors again, and though not perfect (some patches even though no clipping occurs anywhere in th Axe-FX, seem to give some kind of weird saturation noises on the MSP-5s running "only" at 50% of their maximum volume
Click to expand...

Try turning your monitors to 100% and lowering the Axe output knob.
 
When using studio monitors, I think you've got to at least be using some 6 or 8 inch drivers to get more of that "moving air" feeling. 5's (unless high high quality) aren't going to cut it. IMO.

I have the benefit of various options in my music room, but when I'm sitting at my desk with my KRK 6's, it's not ideal but it's pretty good for low volumes.
 
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