Atomic CLR Vs. Tube Amps (4c method) for Live shows?

Gustavo Samor

Gustavo Samor

Member
Hello everyone,

I'm running into the situation where I'm playing more and more live shows and then using the CLR is has not been the best experience to play with a band (yet...), I have a mesa boogie and I've been digging into whether I should start setting up all my presets with 4C method since most stages have tube amps. Also, I play jazz gigs and then I just need something quite basics or maybe just straight to the amp kinda sound...Any comments, personal experience or suggestions will be certainly appreciated... Also if you are using 4 methods cable, do you still use cabs and amp blocks to color the sounds or it's not good for the tube amp to run it like that?
 
This is a loaded question! If you are looking to condense your rig into a CLR and the AX8 and replace the Boogie that shouldn't be to big of an issue you do however have to take into consideration your PA needs.

The type of music you are playing might help, we see you play jazz are you playing any rock, hard rock or metal? is there another guitar player in the group? are you using your own PA equipment or do you rely on backline to project you sound?

One CLR on a short pole (waist hight) behind you or off to the side angled across the stage can work for back line and possibly monitoring but you might want another if you want to carry the stage or monitor just your self.

You didn't mention how familiar you are with FR monitoring. It's obviously not a cab but rather a cab in an ISO booth being played back through a FR monitor so a bit of a different vibe going on and it does take time to get use to it.
 
Sixstring said:
This is a loaded question! If you are looking to condense your rig into a CLR and the AX8 and replace the Boogie that shouldn't be to big of an issue you do however have to take into consideration your PA needs.

The type of music you are playing might help, we see you play jazz are you playing any rock, hard rock or metal? is there another guitar player in the group? are you using your own PA equipment or do you rely on backline to project you sound?

One CLR on a short pole (waist hight) behind you or off to the side angled across the stage can work for back line and possibly monitoring but you might want another if you want to carry the stage or monitor just your self.

You didn't mention how familiar you are with FR monitoring. It's obviously not a cab but rather a cab in an ISO booth being played back through a FR monitor so a bit of a different vibe going on and it does take time to get use to it.
Click to expand...

Thanks SixString!

1. I play different styles of music from pop, latin, jazz...maybe metal is not quite often; and the setting varies from gig to gig...I'm talking about the sound on stage, w/o considering what we send to the FOH.
2. I'm a little related with FRFR speakers since I have with it no longer than 6 months, but I'm just trying to find the best sound possible for me, and for making the band comfortable on stage before the FOH sound. Maybe that's why I've been second guessing about running my AX8 with the 4c method and just have a quite close to the traditional vibes on stage, with the versatility of having an AX8. That's also why I was wondering how many people still run the cabs and amps over the tube amp...
 
Nothing wrong with using what makes you and your band mates feel good about what they are hearing! Not everyone bonds with using FR so I would say use what inspires you the most. You could always use a tube power amp and guitar cab and turn off the power amp sims in the AX8. This way you can simplify your rig not having to use a 4cm!

Back when I first started using FAS gear It took me the better part of a year to get my head around FR and how it was being applied to the Axe FX. If you really want to give it a fair shot I would suggest dialing your sounds in at gig volume to start with. Speaker placement would be next after that it's going to be play and adjust the EQ so your sound fits in the mix.

It has come to be a common mind set that there is no right or wrong way to use this pice of gear but wether or not it sounds good to you thats all. Be patient and you will be rewarded with a sound that you will like!
 
From your experience, what's your favorite setting? Also, do you also use CLR for your live shows? how do you deal when there is a show and there will be combo tube amps on stage, do you bring your CRL anyways?

Thank you so much!
 
I don't necessarily have a favorite setting only a setting that works for the gig and that can change from stage to stage. I start with dialing in a preset using an amp and cab I/R suited for the task if that's what you mean.

The amp settings really aren't that far off from stock unless it's a tone I'm trying to copy then all bets are off, then its what ever works to make it sound the way it should starting with the known amp and cab used to make the sound then add effects and EQ from there.

The cab block settings, I will set the Low cut between 80/110 Hz and the High cut around 5800/7800 again depending on the amp and cab being used.

I only run FR and have done so for the past 10 years now. I can't restate this enough, Dialing in your presets at gig volume is the key! After that getting stage volumes (mix) right first then finish up with some minor EQ'ing will get you pretty close if not right on the money!

I mainly use my CLR as a monitor wedge, rarely do I need to use it for back line support. It does happened from time to time and when that happens it just means re-EQ the output or changing the cut switch on the CLR to compensate for the difference in monitor location.

Just like with anything else, you have to practice to be proficient! Setting up gear on a stage is no different than playing the guitar.

I hope this helps you out a little bit ;)

Cheers!
 
"Dialing in your presets at gig volume is the key! After that getting stage volumes (mix) right first then finish up with some minor EQ'ing will get you pretty close if not right on the money!"

When you said this, what's your common procedure? you set-up your presets at gig volume with headphones or you actually do it full-volume in a studio? This is interesting to me because at least in small apartments---which happens to be my case---this will be almost impossible to do...

Thank you so much for your support @sixstrings ... I think I'll go ahead and sell my mesa since it's more likely I'll keep digging into my Ax8 with the CLR.
 
Gustavo, I hear your challenges as a newer user. You already have some great tips here.

Personally, I had a difficult time transitioning to FRFR at first, coming from amps, pedals, and cabs.
It took me a while to understand and get used to doing it. For a while, I ran 4CM with my Boogie, then Axe II XL into Matrix power amp and cab(s). Great tones both ways. But not really saving my back at all. Still had cabs and the Boogie for a while.
Now it's AX8 direct to FOH and maybe a CLR for some stage volume. Also, the PA's floor monitors can be a way to hear as well, yet those often need tweaking because they also can sound bad without proper EQ. Most are not FRFR speakers.

Honestly, the BEST advice is testing ALL your presets at gig volume. FOH is the MOST important tone because that's your audience.
If you don't, your EQ with be horribly off and your live tone will suffer, BIGTIME.

Basically, do whatever you have to do to get the chance to plug in the CLR and run it at stage volume. That will give you an accurate representation of the FRFR tone. Then, that goes direct to FOH and you can monitor it however you like.
Even if you have to rent a room for an hour or two, it will be worth it.
Once the presets are set (at volume), then minor EQing can be done from gig to gig. Usually, not too much is needed.

It's different to go from amps/cabs to FRFR. Allow yourself some time to adjust. It's really amazing...and your sound tech's will thank you for being so easy to mix. Just tell them "flat please," no compression or EQ needed. Although sometimes they will EQ you for the room, then it's done for you. No need for adjustments on your end.

Best of luck :D
 
Gustavo Samor said:
"Dialing in your presets at gig volume is the key! After that getting stage volumes (mix) right first then finish up with some minor EQ'ing will get you pretty close if not right on the money!"

When you said this, what's your common procedure? you set-up your presets at gig volume with headphones or you actually do it full-volume in a studio? This is interesting to me because at least in small apartments---which happens to be my case---this will be almost impossible to do...

Thank you so much for your support @sixstrings ... I think I'll go ahead and sell my mesa since it's more likely I'll keep digging into my Ax8 with the CLR.
Click to expand...

You have to be able to turn up in order to do this. @GtarLover is right rent a space you can do some practicing in with your group would be the best!

The main reason for dialing your presets in at a giging volume (no head phones) is because of this Fleture-Munson EQ curve This has a large effect on how your ear hears frequencies at different volumes.

When dialing in your presets with the CLR, if things sound to boomy 1, check your cut freq. in the cab block or 2, the Low resonance freq. in the amp block's speaker tab. Those two parameters have a lot of control over the low end. One other is the Bass cut in the amp blocks basic tab when turned on Im pretty sure it cuts around 80 Hz at the preamp side of things.


What sounds good at a low volume will sound over bering at gig volume and your Bass player will super glue your pick to the stage floor :D The CLR does a really good job at representing how you have EQ'd your presets so tune with your ears and not your eyes!

Good luck!
 
I run OP-2 echo OP-1! this adjustment is in the I/O menu. This assigns the same signal to both output's, yet gives you independent volume and EQ controls to each! So if your monitor sounds a little thin on one particular stage add some lows real quick and play on. FYI These are also accessed in the I/O menu under Global > output 2 tab.
 
OK Gustavo,
No, I'm running Out 1 XLR's directly to the FOH and running Out 2 OR Out 1's 1/4" to the CLR, when used.
Depends on what's needed at the gig...sometimes my drummer likes to grab a direct feed to a mixer by him for his own in-ears. In this case he will usually get a 1/4" off of OUT 1. That still leaves Out 2 for CLR.
It doesn't matter, XLR's and 1/4" on Out 1 are BOTH active and available. So even when the FOH is taking 2 XLR's, the 1/4" out's are still usable.
On the CLR, sometimes I will only come in mono, so the other guitar player can also run a line from his AX8 to the CLR. Then we can mix both guitars in one speaker...usually in this case it's under the drum riser or close to that and it's for the Singer to hear guitar stage volume. I don't mind since I'm on in-ears anyway and get my in-ear feed from the board.

So many options...just think it through for yourself and consider what makes the most sense. And understand, things and situations will change, so be flexible. The AX8 is very flexible and versatile, use ALL you options if you need to use them.

Have fun and experiment as well.
 
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