Ares vs Cygnus - if it was perfect - how can it be better now?

Tube amps for me are a lot like Stockholm syndrome relationships. All the fighting with tube amps we did to get anything approaching the tones we wanted, so many pedals and cable spaghetti, the inconsistency, the bulk, the biasing, the not quite right tubes... all so quickly forgotten... I see tube amps as a hot, high maintenance and unstable ex. You'll always miss certain things about them, but you also left them for a reason.

I still own a couple tube amps, but if I'm honest they are emotional relics of a bygone era. I'd rather give away than sell, b/c it'd feel less dirty. I haven't gigged a tube amp since I got the Fractal Standard when that was still in production.
Replaced by "Hmm, should I change the tube type, tweak the bias excursion a bit, use a different IR on the left..." plus all the navigating woes to go adjust those things. If tube amps are the unstable ex, modelers are the indecisive spouse. "What do you want to eat? -I dunno, you pick something..."

I used the Axe-Fx 2 for years, sold it when the 3 was released and bought a tube amp. It was frankly quite liberating to have all the limitations that kind of setup poses. Makes you learn to work with what you have rather than flick a few switches to go chase the next tone. I now own a FM3 but still love using my tube amps when I can play loud. Modelers keep me from buying a pile of tube amps more than anything.
 
It's the concept of MVP, most viable product.

You release a product thinking you have the best you can make.

Post release, you have an epiphany that you think would be an improvement.

You work and test to confirm that the epiphany indeed is an improvement.

Lastly, you release the improvement.

I have done that with certain products too. That we both release updates for free based on those epiphanies is pretty cool. Not everyone does that.

It's not that the original wasn't the best for its moment in time on the competitive market, it just isn't the best when looked at over an infinite timeframe.
 
Replaced by "Hmm, should I change the tube type, tweak the bias excursion a bit, use a different IR on the left..." plus all the navigating woes to go adjust those things. If tube amps are the unstable ex, modelers are the indecisive spouse. "What do you want to eat? -I dunno, you pick something..."

I used the Axe-Fx 2 for years, sold it when the 3 was released and bought a tube amp. It was frankly quite liberating to have all the limitations that kind of setup poses. Makes you learn to work with what you have rather than flick a few switches to go chase the next tone. I now own a FM3 but still love using my tube amps when I can play loud. Modelers keep me from buying a pile of tube amps more than anything.
I hear you on restraints being liberating for creativity. Initially counter-intuitive but true IME.

That said, I never tweak anything that deep. Never needed to. I don't mess with the deep settings on my laptop either. Just because they are there I don't feel a need to swim in them. I know this traps some.

The Fractal world has so many amps, anytime some talks about deep settings I say, "well maybe try a different amp first? we have three flavors or more of nearly everything".

I would welcome Fractal doing a ToneMaster-like thing with their tech in a traditional form factor. I don't expect it, but I could see a third party making something like that one day to sell to us Fractal users. It would have to be a blend of old fashioned wood and control pots and some MIDI. Be cool.
 
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I wonder if the same will apply to recordings done with modellers in 20 years. A JCM800 will still sound like a JCM800 in 50 years time, a modeller version won't, I can't see anyone clambering for an axe FX 1 for that 2030 covers band
 
I wonder if the same will apply to recordings done with modellers in 20 years. A JCM800 will still sound like a JCM800 in 50 years time, a modeller version won't, I can't see anyone clambering for an axe FX 1 for that 2030 covers band

Why not, given it will be cheaper than every other axe fx version available and still sound as good as it did at last update? New versions of things dont make previous versions sound worse.

And a JCM800 with no maintenance done likely wont sound like a JCM800 in 50 years ;).
 
Cliff/Fractal has always been pretty open about describing the changes made with each new generation of firmware. It's fascinating to witness, and I think the whole community has followed along with a more critical ear. I don't know of a company anywhere in the world, in any industry that offers this same type of continual, free improvement to products like Fractal does. We're a lucky bunch.

Also, worth noting that there's 250+ amps in the Axe FX3. Some of them may be 99% perfect match to their tube counterpart, others may only be 95% or 96%. Each generation of firmware affects certain groups of amps more than others.
 
Good luck finding tubes in 50 years. I think there's only something like 3 or 4 factories left in the world now. All modern production tubes come from one of those few factories and are just rebranded.
 
Why not, given it will be cheaper than every other axe fx version available and still sound as good as it did at last update? New versions of things dont make previous versions sound worse.

And a JCM800 with no maintenance done likely wont sound like a JCM800 in 50 years ;)
Good luck finding tubes in 50 years. I think there's only something like 3 or 4 factories left in the world now. All modern production tubes come from one of those few factories and are just rebranded.
Agreed one doesn't make the other worse, but an Axe FX unmaintained and stored in someone's cuboard may not work too.

Yeah I have heard a few "fantastic" sounding unmaintained tube amps in my time, snap, crackle and pop your way through the set!

Also good point on tube availability, but I will raise you chip availability specific to the unit. Try to find a Pentium 1 chip, mobo and some PC66 ram to run your old games plus a lovely ATX power supply. That kit is probably 25 years old, and I would guess I could still buy a valve for a 50s TV lol.

I think if you look back over modelling it has progressively improved year on year. Some may argue that amps have not progressed in the same fashion or in the same way. I am not a tube snob by any stretch, I have owned more modellers than tube amps by quite a margin but if people think modellers sound like tube amps, I think they, in my opinion, are mistaken and that's why what sounds authentic now won't in a short period of time, there is still evolution to be had. That does not take away from the likes of Kemper or Fractal or Line6, as I believe these products are potentially more suited to the modern musician (I gigged my Kemper after getting sick of carrying my JVM) but I have heard, and had internal debates, about modelling and a lot of purchase justification goes on, and I include myself in that. The truth is, if it suits the purpose, why worry. I will reserve my judgement on the Axe FX 3 as it didn't turn up today so I have to wait until Monday now.

For me, it's the application of recording that makes modeling appealing. I can dial up a phaser, delay, 2 amps etc without buying anything afterwards. I have creative reign over my track (albeit distractingly so at times) and in 50 years time when I get famous at the ripe old age of 95, I'll reamp my DI tracks.

The only thing that bugs me is the planned obselence and financial loss with digital equipment but I balance that with it being fit for purpose, for example I own a Peugeot 5008 because its practical and fits the needs of my family and when I am gigging. No one in 50 years time is going to be scouring the internet for a used 2019 5008. To me tube amps are like a Ferrari, impracticable for most of today's modern purposes but are a lot more fun to drive. In 50 years time, that Ferrari will be worth more than it is now......providing it's been maintained and you can buy tubes.

I am grateful for the work all developers do from Kemper to Fractal, from Protocols to Cubase, the same as from Marshall to Mesa, all pushing eachother to make better systems for us to use.

That's my ramblings done....probably completely off topic lol.
 
From my experience over the past decade, Cliff doesn't plan obsolescence into his designs, but it's the nature of the beast that algorithms will advance as new, more powerful hardware becomes available. That doesn't make existing hardware/firmware sound worse; I was happy with my Axe-Fx II before I upgraded to the III, and my buddy still uses a II and is very happy with it. It's only when you compare the II with the III that you start finding room for criticism. I've had the opinion for a number of years now that if there were no further improvements that I'd still be happy with the sound I'm getting, and while I'm thrilled that Cliff has found a way to raise the bar yet again, that opinion hasn't changed.
 
A creator striving for perfection in their creation is understandable. Continuous improvement after it's created requires passion. To share those improvements when the creation is not broken is admirable. To implement this in a business model builds loyalty. So far I am impressed with Fractal audio's commitment and their product.
 
From my experience over the past decade, Cliff doesn't plan obsolescence into his designs, but it's the nature of the beast that algorithms will advance as new, more powerful hardware becomes available. That doesn't make existing hardware/firmware sound worse; I was happy with my Axe-Fx II before I upgraded to the III, and my buddy still uses a II and is very happy with it. It's only when you compare the II with the III that you start finding room for criticism. I've had the opinion for a number of years now that if there were no further improvements that I'd still be happy with the sound I'm getting, and while I'm thrilled that Cliff has found a way to raise the bar yet again, that opinion hasn't changed.
Hey bud

Just so I can clarify, and I am not saying you were acussing me of anything, there was no suggestion that Cliff does as I don't even own a Fractal device as of yet.....just wanted to make sure that was clear. It was more aimed at Apple products, and some other high end business devices. Seen it with development multiple times where businesses sit on code improvements as it's more suited to a new version rather than allow the device to be developed behinds it's processing capabilities.

I do agree in that if it's good now it is good in 20 years time, but it is human nature to want the latest and more up to date version. I don't think it would be good in comparison to what's around in 20 years time. The Pod was meant to be tube like, listen to it now it sounds dreadful.

Mike
 
A creator striving for perfection in their creation is understandable. Continuous improvement after it's created requires passion. To share those improvements when the creation is not broken is admirable. To implement this in a business model builds loyalty. So far I am impressed with Fractal audio's commitment and their product.
I can't argue with any of that....well put
 
If we consider to have a single amp with effects drives ecc i think will be very difficult to improve in terms of sound quality comparing to the real thing... As cliff said some days ago i think the impulse response is still the ring of the chain that can be developed more.. If we talk about having all the amps, effects in a single machine obviously the technology will allow this with more powerful smallest processors.
 
I used the Axe-Fx 2 for years, sold it when the 3 was released and bought a tube amp. It was frankly quite liberating to have all the limitations that kind of setup poses. Makes you learn to work with what you have rather than flick a few switches to go chase the next tone. I now own a FM3 but still love using my tube amps when I can play loud. Modelers keep me from buying a pile of tube amps more than anything.
This is exactly where I got with the Kemper, scrolling for eternity whilst second guessing my every move. Went to tubes and it was liberating, then I started to need other sounds and the rabbit hole was revisited.

I think there is a place for both, my view is at the least the JCM800 will be my core rhythm sound where I feel tone is more important. For lead sounds you can get away with a more digitised or artificial sound as lead as generally these are drown in reverb, delay or other digital effects anyway. (talking hard rock here).

You can do with tube amps what you can't do with a digital device, get the feel, bounce and mojo that the sound promotes, but you can do with digital what you can't do with amps or at least not without great investment such as run dual amps into stereo delays then jump to a completely different configuration.

I have learnt that all have a place..

Regarding the "analysis paralysis" that comes with modellers, once I sold my Kemper I very quickly went down the rabbit hole of different amps, effects, loadboxes, IRs etc. I think it's a personality trait not a fault of any device, at least for me as I have a very addictive personality.

Take care
 
Good luck finding tubes in 50 years. I think there's only something like 3 or 4 factories left in the world now. All modern production tubes come from one of those few factories and are just rebranded.
Think about the return of vinyl records. There´s only on company left in Europe which still produces them, even with the same old machines like in the 80´s. But they get more and more jobs!
 
That makes me feel old, now. Do you realize that today is to the 80's that the 80's were to the 40's? LOL!

I grew up in the 80s and 90s. Born in late 70s. All I can say is what a great time it was to grow up. There wasn't surveillance. We could be crazy kids and do crazy sh!t. What a killer soundtrack we had too. From 70s rock, 80s hair metal, grunge, to pantera.... remember when you only got a trophy for placing 1st, 2nd, or 3rd? How about when you got your first digitech gsp? Lol
 
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I wonder if the same will apply to recordings done with modellers in 20 years. A JCM800 will still sound like a JCM800 in 50 years time, a modeller version won't, I can't see anyone clambering for an axe FX 1 for that 2030 covers band
Yet Tim pierce is selling his h3000 for $3800. Nostalgia is a powerful drug.
 
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