Are the compressors in this thing 'modelled" or what?

[godprobe]

Jay, please reread every post I made on this thread and please find the quote where I said I've tried and was unsuccessful in creating the sound of an La2a or an 1176?

So lemme get this straight: you're saying that you'd really, really like to have those sounds available. But you have neither tried to dial them in yourself nor inquired if someone else here has done so and would be willing to share their settings. Hmmm....

So, lemme get this straight. You think I should have tried to dial in the tone, character and response of compressors I don't even have here to compare with?

:?

I'm confused.

So... okay... let me get this straight in my (admittedly, very strange) head.

I'm at Burger King. I ask if they serve a Big Mac. No, they have Whoppers though, which are similar.
In fact, they could probably get close to a Big Mac with the ingredients they have on hand.
I say... how is that possible? There aren't any Big Macs around to compare with!
(Implying that I don't even know what I'm asking for -- after all, how would I know that what they made wasn't a Big Mac if I don't have a Big Mac to compare with, if I need a Big Mac to compare with to be able to tell if what they gave me is a Big Mac?)

guittarzzan, I have no issue with you requesting models of compressors -- by all means, add it to the wish list. However, your current argument in favor of them isn't going well in my eyes. I think you'd do better by arguing that the ingredients are not currently available, and explaining what is needed since so far, the replies have indicated that the included ingredients may in fact be all you need.

If you're arguing the different philosophies of dialing in effects, either via specific modeled gear (Line 6-style) or via flexible generic effect sims (Fractal-style), then state that.

 

[Jay Mitchell]

So, lemme get this straight. You think I should have tried to dial in the tone, character and response of compressors I don't even have here to compare with?

Wow. You're admitting that you don't even know what they sound like, yet you're asking for someone else to create a sim of one? How will you know if the sim is any good?

 

[guittarzzan]

:?

I'm confused.

So... okay... let me get this straight in my (admittedly, very strange) head.

I'm at Burger King. I ask if they serve a Big Mac. No, they have Whoppers though, which are similar.
In fact, they could probably get close to a Big Mac with the ingredients they have on hand.
I say... how is that possible? There aren't any Big Macs around to compare with!
(Implying that I don't even know what I'm asking for -- after all, how would I know that what they made wasn't a Big Mac if I don't have a Big Mac to compare with, if I need a Big Mac to compare with to be able to tell if what they gave me is a Big Mac?)

guittarzzan, I have no issue with you requesting models of compressors -- by all means, add it to the wish list. However, your current argument in favor of them isn't going well in my eyes. I think you'd do better by arguing that the ingredients are not currently available, and explaining what is needed since so far, the replies have indicated that the included ingredients may in fact be all you need.

If you're arguing the different philosophies of dialing in effects, either via specific modeled gear (Line 6-style) or via flexible generic effect sims (Fractal-style), then state that.

If you can stomach reading back from the start to now, you'll find that I wasn't saying or arguing that the Axefx should have these comp models or that Cliff should put them in etc. In fact, I started out by just asking if the comps in this thing were modelled after any particular gear or just Cliff's version. Then I threw out a "wouldn't it be cool if..." comment/idea and that's when Mr. Jay M. decided to drop in and advise us/me that the discussion was a waste of time and we should be spending our time more productively. It was really just a thought. No one said the Axefx is lacking because it doesn't have these comps modelled etc or anything like that, but Jay decided to jump in, as usual, and condescendingly explain why the entire idea lacked merit or validity.
I've read so many threads where he's jumped in and instead of just offering his thoughts or opinions about THE SUBJECT people are talking about, he chooses to explain why, in his holy opinion, other people's are basically stupid or poorly thought out. ...as if everyone's comments or ideas should be run through a series of checks and tests before typing any words. As I mentioned earlier, I've just grown tired of reading his talking down to people and this time it just lit a fuse I guess. To be so judgemental and so hypocritical at the same time, I just felt he needed to be called out. A lot of people just bite their lips when he gets on his pedestal and tries to belittle them. I chose not to this time I guess. I think if more people called him out when he takes this attitude, I think eventually he'd tone it down a bit...maybe.
As far as the comps go, yeah, it would be cool to have those models, but who cares? It was just a thought posted on a forum...not a demand...or even a request.
Happy jammin' everyone...yes Jay...even you. :mrgreen:

 

[guittarzzan]

So, lemme get this straight. You think I should have tried to dial in the tone, character and response of compressors I don't even have here to compare with?

Wow. You're admitting that you don't even know what they sound like, yet you're asking for someone else to create a sim of one? How will you know if the sim is any good?

Oh my dear, dear Jay,

This will be my last response to your mindless attempts to somehow elevate your poor, little ego up another notch.
I guess my response to your last post would have to be..."Are you completely NUTS?"
I haven't heard either one of these compressors in a few years, but that really has nothing to do with the fact that they are industry standards and very highly regarded by a great many professional engineers with miles more credentials than you will ever have. So, I really don't have to have one in my lap or even have to remember exactly every possible aspect of their qualities to know that I think it'd be cool to have models of them. They're industry standards and have been for years so what I have physically here in my studio or what I remember they sound like is really irrelevant to the conversation you barged in on and spoiled. Are you saying that you wouldn't want dead-on accurate models of those comps in the Axefx if it were possible? I think a great number of members would love it, but again, it never was a request or a demand. It was just an idea you decided to try and "prove", albeit unsuccessfully, invalid.
I don't have to have a Mesa dual recto here in my studio to know that it's been an industry standard in the rock/metal genre for years and that it'd be a nice flavor to have in the Axefx. I owned one at one time, but do I remember every aspect of it's tone, character and response? No, but that's really irrelevant in the context of just thinking it'd be cool to have a model of it. It just so happens that Cliff's done a great job at modelling a few of the Mesa's so cool.
Ya see Mr Jay, you really can't disprove or make invalid someone's idea that something would be cool to have. If someone says they like the color blue, you can spend all day telling them why you KNOW the color blue is the WRONG one to have as their favority, but in the end, they're still gonna love the color blue and they'll probably just think your a jerk or an idiot for trying to convince them otherwise or why they're wrong. People have their ideas and you have yours. Yours are no better or worse than anyone else's yet you seem to continually try to prove otherwise.
As I said at the start of this post, this will be my last response to your feeble and desperate attempts to "prove" I'm wrong for thinking it would be cool to have models of the La2a and 1176. Regardless of what you say, I'll still think it'd be cool.
I'm sure all this typing will do no good in making headway against your downward talking approach to people, but at least you know that people are aware of it. I've already received one PM since this started agreeing with me so again, I'm not the only one who's noticed your methods. Some of this has really dug into you because you've spent a good amount of effort, like me, keeping this "debate" alive. Obviously, you consider it very important and a very productive use of your time and attention...or your ego has been bruised a bit and now it's time to save face. I don't know. What I do know is I'm done and probably would have had more productive conversation with a three-headed, bipolar chicken than with you.
I wish you well.

Ok, time to rock. G'night Mr. Jay.

 

[Jay Mitchell]

I haven't heard either one of these compressors in a few years,

So you really don't have any idea how they sound, or whether those sounds can be readily produced by the existing Axe-Fx algorithms. Incredible.

but that really has nothing to do with the fact that they are industry standards and very highly regarded by a great many professional engineers

I see. For you, it's not so much a sound thing as an ego thing.

They're industry standards and have been for years so what I have physically here in my studio or what I remember they sound like is really irrelevant to the conversation

Uhh, no. It's the whole ball of wax. You're admitting that you'll just have to take someone else's word as to whether the sims are accurate, and, even worse, you're admitting that you have no idea whether the Axe-Fx can produce these sounds right now.

I'd say the Axe-Fx is more targeted at folks who trust their own ears, as opposed to those who are more interested in name-dropping than in actual sound, but that's just a guess on my part. Perhaps you could get one of these "professional engineers with miles more credentials than I will ever have" to tweak your Axe-Fx to produce the sounds made by these "industry standard" devices, since you apparently can't be bothered to do any work towards that goal yourself.

Here's an interesting tidbit: the engineer who has done most of the work on the recreations of these old UREI processors is my good friend, Dennis Fink. We met in 1969, when we were both attending college at Georgia Tech, and lemme tell you, those were some good times. The stories we could tell on each other.... He went to work for UREI shortly after completing his Master's Degree in electrical engineering ca. 1976 then left about ten years later and spent the next ~20 years doing DSP design. If anyone could implement accurate replicas of those devices in DSP, it would be Dennis. His rates are competitive, probably no more than $150/hr or so. Shall I ask him to call you? :lol:

 

[Matman]

the Axe-Fx is ... targeted at folks who trust their own ears

This is one of the most spot on statements I've ever read on this forum.

PS: I know a set of very good up and coming DSP whiz kids who might love to submit a question or two to your friend Dennis!

 

[steveb]

ok, admitting that I really don't know how Cliff has programmed his effects, my GUESS is that its just what it says in the wiki... he programmed the best compression ( or reverb, chorus, etc) effect that he could. To the extent that "modelling" a particular effect means tweaking AxeFx parameters to mimic built in parameters, then you can do plenty of that. However, to model the various distortions produced by a particular boxes choice of analog electronics is an entirely different problem and probably a COMPLETELY different type of algorithmic requirement. He might have gone that route to a large extent in the amp models ( and maybe drives) , but probably not in the effects models. And talk about a can of worms ( or as Indy would say "snakes.... I see snakes"), I'm sure Cliff has more than enough requests for different amp models without opening up requests for hundreds of different effects boxes.

My opinion would be to leave that to Line6 if thats how they feel like marketing their units. My belief is that line 6's "models" are alot closer to just tweaking parameters on a fairly standard algorithm rather than modelling circuitry, but who knows.

I could be completely wrong though.

 

[lilbman]

ok, admitting that I really don't know how Cliff has programmed his effects, my GUESS is that its just what it says in the wiki... he programmed the best compression ( or reverb, chorus, etc) effect that he could. To the extent that "modelling" a particular effect means tweaking AxeFx parameters to mimic built in parameters, then you can do plenty of that. However, to model the various distortions produced by a particular boxes choice of analog electronics is an entirely different problem and probably a COMPLETELY different type of algorithmic requirement. He might have gone that route to a large extent in the amp models ( and maybe drives) , but probably not in the effects models. And talk about a can of worms ( or as Indy would say "snakes.... I see snakes"), I'm sure Cliff has more than enough requests for different amp models without opening up requests for hundreds of different effects boxes.

My opinion would be to leave that to Line6 if thats how they feel like marketing their units. My belief is that line 6's "models" are alot closer to just tweaking parameters on a fairly standard algorithm rather than modelling circuitry, but who knows.
I could be completely wrong though.

Fair enough

 

[Jay Mitchell]

However, to model the various distortions produced by a particular boxes choice of analog electronics is an entirely different problem and probably a COMPLETELY different type of algorithmic requirement.

Distortion can be created in a wide variety of ways, each having its own characteristic tonal signature. One of the more recent Axe-Fx firmware revisions included an increase in the available types of drive units and exposed many of the more advanced parameters. Selecting the drive type sets each of these advanced parameters to a default value, but that could have been left out without adversely affecting the potential for creating the different drive types with the available parameters.

He might have gone that route to a large extent in the amp models ( and maybe drives) ,

Agreed, to the extent that amp and drive types have been named and designated as "models" of specific physical products. While there is some utility in that - particularly in the case of the amp block, which has an incredible number of default amp "types" - it is more a matter of convenience to the user than of intrinsic capability in the Axe-Fx.

but probably not in the effects models.

The one difference in other effects is that the "type" selection, where it is present, does not call up a named model and set all the default parameters. However, there are enough parameters exposed to the user that the behavior of most effects can be duplicated in the Axe. It just takes some time and effort on the part of the user. I'm perfectly OK with that. Others, apparently not so much.

My belief is that line 6's "models" are alot closer to just tweaking parameters on a fairly standard algorithm rather than modelling circuitry,

My observation is that the Axe-Fx has no "fairly standard algorithms." The quality of processing in any Axe-Fx block is not possible to match in a budget modeler, because the processing power required to implement effective algorithms is unavailable. In the case of Line 6, the real DSP brainpower left the company a couple years back, so their ability to create new algorithms and debug existing ones is in serious doubt.

 

[Jay Mitchell]

I wasn't saying or arguing that the Axefx should have these comp models or that Cliff should put them in etc.

Hmmm.... Here's a quote from your OP:

As great as the amp sims sound now, I would think the same quality modelling could be done on some sweet classic comps.

The implication you're making in this statement is that "quality modeling" has not already been done in the Axe-Fx. You have since admitted that you are in no position to know if that is the case, since you never even tried to get the compressor sounds you claim to want (but then openly admit you don't remember well enough to try to create).

Then you ask:

Am I high maintenance?

Yes.

 

[Matman]

Distortion can be created in a wide variety of ways.

I'll be happy when I can draw curves.