Are the compressors in this thing 'modelled" or what?

[lilbman]

I know your just voicing YOUR opinion. Are we really worried about
the stock presets? Anyway, I applaud you in your defense for potential
future updates that may/may not be beneficial to the majority.

 

[javajunkie]

I know your just voicing YOUR opinion. Are we really worried about
the stock presets? Anyway, I applaud you in your defense for potential
future updates that may/may not be beneficial to the majority.

I'm not too worried about the majority (that's Cliff's job). I am concerned about my own (a few are right on the edge) and the direction the axe-fx goes in; just as you obviously are as well.

 

[VegaBaby]

I one were to model a transparent compressor (and one that actually works well), the FMR Audio R.N.C. is the only one I know of, and have used. Does not change the character of the sound one iota.

I find the Axe's compressor to be quite transparent actually. I don't think Cliff programmed some 'character' into it and to me it really seems to alter the frequencies very little.

 

[guittarzzan]

Just like the other effects, you can choose or not choose to have them in your chain/preset. If there were a model of an La2a or 1176 compressor in the Axefx, that wouldn't mean you'd HAVE to use it. Just to have it available shouldn't come at a cost. If you had some presets on an older firmware with a standard Fractal compressor in the chain, it wouldn't change a thing for your preset until you decided you wanted to put the La2a model in there...right?
Refining the amp and cab models to the point they're at now has apparently come at a "cost", but it was well worth it imo. A compressor isn't something you HAVE to have in your chain so it'd only be a factor on the presets you choose to use it on.
If his comp models were all that and a bag of chips, he could bridge 'em to Pro Tools etc and make a killing. You have any idea how many people would pay good money for classic comp plug ins that really DO sound like the hardware versions?
Anyway, I'm just sitting here dreamin'. I won't lose any sleep over it waiting. I'd rather have a foot controller or Axepc first.
...man, it'd be sweet to have the option in the cab section after the mic selection to choose between API, Chandler, SSL or NEVE mic pre's too. Did I just say that out loud? :twisted: haha jk

 

[VegaBaby]

Just like the other effects, you can choose or not choose to have them in your chain/preset. If there were a model of an La2a or 1176 compressor in the Axefx, that wouldn't mean you'd HAVE to use it. Just to have it available shouldn't come at a cost. If you had some presets on an older firmware with a standard Fractal compressor in the chain, it wouldn't change a thing for your preset until you decided you wanted to put the La2a model in there...right?
Refining the amp and cab models to the point they're at now has apparently come at a "cost", but it was well worth it imo. A compressor isn't something you HAVE to have in your chain so it'd only be a factor on the presets you choose to use it on.
If his comp models were all that and a bag of chips, he could bridge 'em to Pro Tools etc and make a killing. You have any idea how many people would pay good money for classic comp plug ins that really DO sound like the hardware versions?
Anyway, I'm just sitting here dreamin'. I won't lose any sleep over it waiting. I'd rather have a foot controller or Axepc first.
...man, it'd be sweet to have the option in the cab section after the mic selection to choose between API, Chandler, SSL or NEVE mic pre's too. Did I just say that out loud? :twisted: haha jk

I definitely agree on that. If the question would be 'do you want additional, new models ?', I'd definitely NOT say no, especially seeing how great Cliff is with modeling

 

[DNW]

Just like the other effects, you can choose or not choose to have them in your chain/preset. If there were a model of an La2a or 1176 compressor in the Axefx, that wouldn't mean you'd HAVE to use it. Just to have it available shouldn't come at a cost. If you had some presets on an older firmware with a standard Fractal compressor in the chain, it wouldn't change a thing for your preset until you decided you wanted to put the La2a model in there...right?
Refining the amp and cab models to the point they're at now has apparently come at a "cost", but it was well worth it imo. A compressor isn't something you HAVE to have in your chain so it'd only be a factor on the presets you choose to use it on.
If his comp models were all that and a bag of chips, he could bridge 'em to Pro Tools etc and make a killing. You have any idea how many people would pay good money for classic comp plug ins that really DO sound like the hardware versions?
Anyway, I'm just sitting here dreamin'. I won't lose any sleep over it waiting. I'd rather have a foot controller or Axepc first.
...man, it'd be sweet to have the option in the cab section after the mic selection to choose between API, Chandler, SSL or NEVE mic pre's too. Did I just say that out loud? :twisted: haha jk

Well that's the issue I think. It's one thing if it costs no more CPU power for those who aren't using it. However, if parameters and whatever else are added into the compressor, that are there regardless of which "model" compressor you're using, and that requires more CPU power, then some people might have problems with it. Take for example the drive block. I'm not sure if those extra parameters we got a few updates back do inherently require more CPU power, but that's the kind of thing I'm talking about. The large majority of the time I never have to touch those adv parameters, but they're there nonethless, and I assume costing more CPU power than the old drive block did, even if only by a small amount.

One way around it I guess would be an entirely separate "adv compressor" block or something that has more options or models or whatever, and keeps all the extra stuff completely separate from the normal comp block.


Doesn't really bother me personally, I'm just arguing for the sake of it... I tend to only use the MBC at the moment anyway. :lol:

 

[javajunkie]

Just like the other effects, you can choose or not choose to have them in your chain/preset. If there were a model of an La2a or 1176 compressor in the Axefx, that wouldn't mean you'd HAVE to use it. Just to have it available shouldn't come at a cost. If you had some presets on an older firmware with a standard Fractal compressor in the chain, it wouldn't change a thing for your preset until you decided you wanted to put the La2a model in there...right?
Refining the amp and cab models to the point they're at now has apparently come at a "cost", but it was well worth it imo. A compressor isn't something you HAVE to have in your chain so it'd only be a factor on the presets you choose to use it on.
If his comp models were all that and a bag of chips, he could bridge 'em to Pro Tools etc and make a killing. You have any idea how many people would pay good money for classic comp plug ins that really DO sound like the hardware versions?
Anyway, I'm just sitting here dreamin'. I won't lose any sleep over it waiting. I'd rather have a foot controller or Axepc first.
...man, it'd be sweet to have the option in the cab section after the mic selection to choose between API, Chandler, SSL or NEVE mic pre's too. Did I just say that out loud? :twisted: haha jk

Well that's the issue I think. It's one thing if it costs no more CPU power for those who aren't using it. However, if parameters and whatever else are added into the compressor, that are there regardless of which "model" compressor you're using, and that requires more CPU power, then some people might have problems with it. Take for example the drive block. I'm not sure if those extra parameters we got a few updates back do inherently require more CPU power, but that's the kind of thing I'm talking about. The large majority of the time I never have to touch those adv parameters, but they're there nonethless, and I assume costing more CPU power than the old drive block did, even if only by a small amount.

One way around it I guess would be an entirely separate "adv compressor" block or something that has more options or models or whatever, and keeps all the extra stuff completely separate from the normal comp block.


Doesn't really bother me personally, I'm just arguing for the sake of it... I tend to only use the MBC at the moment anyway. :lol:

Exactly, if we are talking about modeling stuff that isn't being modeled (like chorus and compression), then the algorithm is likely to have to change. This could and probably would come at a processing cost or a quality cost. Since Cliff would most likely not reduce the quality, it would probably be processing. Now, if it had a negligible effect on processing that is a different story.

 

[guittarzzan]

[/quote]



One way around it I guess would be an entirely separate "adv compressor" block or something that has more options or models or whatever, and keeps all the extra stuff completely separate from the normal comp block.


quote]
That's what I'm talking about. It could be completely seperate from the other comps...OR whatever options/parameters/controls that are part of the modelled comp wouldn't have to be available on the standard comps so if you select a regular Fractal comp you get the same dsp useage. If you select the La2a, it comes at a cost.
The comps I've been referring to may have more complex math to acheive their sounds, but they DON'T have more controls and options that the Fractal ones. They are pretty minimalistic and not bursting with control features. They just have a great sound and tons of mojo.

 

[Jay Mitchell]

Here's another tempest in a teapot. With the possible exception of devices that have extraordinary signal chains (e.g multiple cascaded compressors), the compressor block in the Axe-Fx has more than enough configurability to match the effect of almost any stompbox or rack-mounted compressor. Rather than argue about what Cliff should or should not do, it would be far more productive to set up an A/B with the stompbox of your choice and the Axe-Fx and work your way to a match, or to place a request in the forum and see if someone else has already done what you want.

This is no different than complaining about presets. 99%+ of the time, matching the sound of a particular model stompbox is just a matter of optimally dialing in adjustments that are already provided in the Axe-Fx. A little quality time on your part can yield huge dividends here, and not just for yourself: you can share the settings you've arrived at with other users here.

Here's a quote from the manual: "For example, the wah effect in the Axe-Fx is not intended to model any of the classic wah-wahs. Instead the input-output relationship of a wah was distilled into a set of specifications. From there the effect was designed to exactly meet these specifications. There is no "black magic" or obfuscation. The effect does exactly what it should do. Inherent in this approach is a degree of flexibility that you do not get with other processors. (emphasis mine) In our wah example this allows you to set the sweep range, "Q" and other parameters. Most modeling processors do not allow this level of control."

The above is, to me, completely unambiguous. It clearly states the philosophical basis for the Axe-Fx's algorithms. The power lies in your hands (and ears). All you have to do is learn to use it.

 

[javajunkie]

Here are a couple from the WIKI:

Emulating various well-known compressors
Dyna comp emulation

The MXR Dyna Comp is a classic guitar compressor pedal. From web research, its features were listed as follows:

* Limiting Threshold Adjustable from 4-80 mV
* Compression Adjustable from 15-40 dB
* Attack Time 4mS at center ATTACK setting
* Decay Time 1.2 Sec

To replicate this on the Axe-Fx, use these settings:

* ATT - 9.9 (very fast)
* REL - 1.0 (very slow)
* COMP - 10
* THRSH - -55

By one report, it "sounds more like a Keeley."
Teletronix LA-2A settings

* tube-based electro-optical attenuator
* Comp = soft knee, semi-fixed 4:1 ratio
* Limiting = infinity ratio
* ATTACK TIME: @ 10 microseconds
* RELEASE TIME: 0.06 seconds for 50% release; 0.5-5 seconds for complete release

Universal Audio 1176LN specifications

* FET-based attenuator
* Attack Time: 20 microseconds to 800 microseconds
* Release Time: 50 milliseconds to 1.1 seconds
* Ratios: 4,8,12,20,All
* All-button mode or "British mode": For those that don't know, back in the glory days of gonzo recording, an adventurous engineer wanted to know what would happen if you pressed all four compression ratio buttons in at the same time. It was discovered that with all four buttons pressed in, the 1176 made drums jump out of the speakers, and became a much used staple of hard rock drum recording.

Teletronix LA-3A specifications

* electro-optical attenuator
* Attack: 1.5ms or less
* Release: 0.06s for 50% release

 

[guittarzzan]

This is no different than complaining about presets.

Good grief you have a knack for dropping in and getting up on a pedestal to express how you think some people's entire posting is just senseless and pointless.

You are so far off here. First of all-no one complained here. It's NOT the same. Secondly, just because YOU think the comps have all the paramteters needed to emulate what we've been discussing here, doesn't make it so. If that were the case, The Axefx would just come with one amp model with all the parameters and you would just tweak each parameter to get the amps you wanted. That's not the deal here. There are a bunch of amp "models" and that IS different than taking a generic model...let's say the tube preamp, and trying to make it sound like a Bogner. The point of having the models is to try and nail the tone and character of a particular amp. It's not to try and dial in the parameters so it's in the ball park. We don't want a Soldano to sound sort of like a Soldano. We want it dead on or so close it doesn't matter.
So, why you think that someone saying, "wouldn't it be cool if..." is the same as complaining about presets is beyond me.

Lastly, Jay, I think it's great the amount of contribution you've given here, but I would love there to be a day when you can reply to my and others' posts in a way that isn't dripping in ego and arrogance. If you have something to really add, great, but please don't drop in just to express why you think the entire thread is pointless and all anyone would have to do is spend some quality time tweaking. That's not the same as modelling an La2a or 1176 and you know it. I can set up my Distressors to get in the ball park of one of those comps, but it's still not the same sound/effect as running through the actual unit. So, I end with this, "wouldn't it be cool if...?" You can fill in the blank with something you feel is valid in your world. We have different perspectives...CLEARLY. :?

 

[Jay Mitchell]

just because YOU think the comps have all the paramteters needed to emulate what we've been discussing here, doesn't make it so.

Reread the passage I quoted from the manual. That's not what I think, it's apparently what Cliff thinks. If you disagree, perhaps you should place a request in the Wish List.

So, I end with this, "wouldn't it be cool if...?"

You can make a request - my suggestion would be in the "Share and Request Patches" forum - for help from other users who might have already found the "wouldn't it be cool if.." sound you're looking for. The fact that you have not sucessfully dialed in a sound does not lead inevitably to the conclusion that the Axe-Fx is not capable of producing that sound. This forum offers the possibility of collaboration with other users in an effort to help each other with their difficulties. Whether you decide to exploit that possibility is, of course, up to you. I suggest, knowing full well that I am likely to be ignored now as in the past, that doing so would be a far more productive exercise than "wouldn't it be cool if.." daydreams.

There are already thousands of stompboxes out there, and their numbers will only grow. Expecting the Axe-Fx to come with ready-made sims of your particular favorites is not only selfish, it's unrealistic.

FWIW, you don't even need a compressor block to create a compressor in the Axe-Fx. You can create compression and/or expansion with any block that has an assignable level or drive control. Assign it to the Envelope controller, which has the ballistics (threshold and attack/release time), and use the beginning, middle, and end parameters to set the gain curve. This capability is incredibly powerful. You can use it with the Mixer and filters to do level-dependent equalization and/or frequency-dependent compression. If the available compressor blocks aren't enough, you can use this capability to add more.

 

[guittarzzan]

[quote="Jay Mitchell

I suggest, knowing full well that I am likely to be ignored now as in the past, that doing so would be a far more productive exercise than "wouldn't it be cool if.." daydreams.

There are already thousands of stompboxes out there, and their numbers will only grow. Expecting the Axe-Fx to come with ready-made sims of your particular favorites is not only selfish, it's unrealistic.

Don't underestimate the "productivity" of a daydream. I bet the Axefx started out as a "daydream" in Cliff's head early on. Thank you for your priceless lecture on productivity though. Another much-needed contribution.

Expecting? Who said I expected the Axe-fx to come with "ready-made" sims? To stray even further from what I've mentioned here, you bring up "thousands of stompboxes". I simply said it'd be cool to have models of two of the most used compressor/limiters on thousands of hit records over the last...guessing...40 years or so. No one complained. No one said the Axefx should have this or should have that. No one said it should model every compressor pedal ever made.
Being that you feel this entire thread was senseless "daydreaming" and felt compelled to lecture on how people should be spending their time more productively, it makes me wonder...how productive are you being by trying to dismantle the validity of some forum chat about a piece of gear? If you disapprove of this conversation, so what. No one is seeking your approval.
This is about the 3rd time that you've dropped in on a thread I started to express your disapproval or reasons why the thread lacked validity. It's getting old and I am asking NICELY that you just bite your lip unless you have something to contribute and can do so without trying to demean or belittle others in the process. If you some personal beef with me, please PM me and let's hash it out because I'm honestly tired of this and we need to coexist in this little bubble.

 

[DNW]

Well, this is going well. :lol:


I think this is getting blown a bit out of proportion.


Jay has a point in highlighting the fact that the FX in the Axe, amps and drives aside, are supposed to just be high quality effects in themselves, not copies of any particular brand or model. This is stated quite clearly in Cliff's own introduction to the Axe. It's his idea for the Axe, and I'm guessing it will stay that way. That said, with all that we've been given already, it wouldn't surprise me if with enough requesting from enough users, he started to model certain particular FX units.

On the other hand, aside from Cliff himself, we've got some highly knowledgeable boffins of sorts here on the forum. A number of classic FX have already been recreated and the settings posted. If not Cliff himself, if someone else has a solid working knowledge of some of these units, maybe they can work at seeing if these things can be recreated within the Axe with its current capabilities, even if it does require chaining several blocks together. Certain things like the RNC that has been discussed, which requires three comps chained together or whatever it is, might not be possible, but I guess that's when you hit the Wish List forum and ask that a 3rd comp block be made available. If it gets enough support and Cliff sees a point to it, you might get what you ask for.

In the end, I guess it's a combination of Cliff's vision for the Axe and the greater good. If three people (and I'm not saying this is the case now) are asking for particular comp models, but every other Axe user couldn't give a toss, I don't imagine it'll sway Cliff from his point of view in keeping the FX as just his own high quality takes on those effects. On the other hand, things like the poweramp revision we had a little while back... that's something most users would have really benefitted from. Opening up the adv drive block parameters lets us take those few drive models and essentially turn it into an endless number of possibilities. Comp, or whatever FX models however, is I imagine quite a bit more specific in the number of users who will benefit. That's not to say it won't or shouldn't happen, but I guess if you want it enough, put together your best case and post it in the Wish List forum... where possibly another argument will ensue, but that's another matter. :lol:


So yeah, whatever... I'm just rambling at this point. Like I said earlier, I don't I think I even use the comps at the moment aside from the MBC. :lol:

 

[chase]

Teletronix LA-2A settings

* tube-based electro-optical attenuator
* Comp = soft knee, semi-fixed 4:1 ratio
* Limiting = infinity ratio
* ATTACK TIME: @ 10 microseconds
* RELEASE TIME: 0.06 seconds for 50% release; 0.5-5 seconds for complete release

If the numbers VegaBaby posted in the other compressor thread are accurate, then the Axe-Fx compressor can't replicate some of the more extreme settings of the LA-2A (fastest attack time = 1ms, slowest release time = 1 second). The release envelope appears to have two stages, something else that isn't possible in the Axe's compressor. I'm in favor of parameters that give more soundshaping flexibility (like the slew limit in the drive block), but I don't know if adding things like "release breakpoint" or "ratio modulation" are worth doing or not (is the sonic difference enough to merit the CPU cost or increased complexity? Does anyone use a 5.06 second release time?) If someone feels strongly about this, a clip demonstrating the advantages of some other compressor is probably your best bet - after all, Cliff improved the reverb significantly because some people felt it didn't sound as nice as a Lexicon.

* All-button mode or "British mode": For those that don't know, back in the glory days of gonzo recording, an adventurous engineer wanted to know what would happen if you pressed all four compression ratio buttons in at the same time. It was discovered that with all four buttons pressed in, the 1176 made drums jump out of the speakers, and became a much used staple of hard rock drum recording.

Interesting. I wonder what the actual effect is of pushing in all the buttons. Empirical Labs says "What resulted was a very, very aggressive sound that had some elements of the units 20:1 ratio, but with an unusual knee and new envelope shape." Sounds like it'd be difficult or perhaps impossible to emulate that.

BTW, Cliff has mentioned elsewhere that the way to get the Really Nice mode from the RNC is to run two studio compressors in series, each set to half the desired compression ratio.

 

[Jay Mitchell]

It's getting old and I am asking NICELY that you just bite your lip unless you have something to contribute

I guess the part about how you can make a compressor out of any block with an assignable level or drive control, complete with instructions on how to do it, can't be considered a "contribution" in a thread about compressors. :roll:

FWIW, this isn't about you. It's about the difference between a constructive request for assistance and an assumption that, because you've been unsuccessful in creating a particular sound, the Axe-Fx necessarily cannot produce that sound. Before you start asking for Cliff to spend his time, it only makes sense to try asking for help from other users.

 

[dk_ace]

FWIW, you don't even need a compressor block to create a compressor in the Axe-Fx. You can create compression and/or expansion with any block that has an assignable level or drive control. Assign it to the Envelope controller, which has the ballistics (threshold and attack/release time), and use the beginning, middle, and end parameters to set the gain curve. This capability is incredibly powerful. You can use it with the Mixer and filters to do level-dependent equalization and/or frequency-dependent compression. If the available compressor blocks aren't enough, you can use this capability to add more.

That is a freaking amazing tip! I can't believe I haven't thought of it before. Thanks Jay!

D

 

[guittarzzan]

FWIW, this isn't about you. It's about the difference between a constructive request for assistance and an assumption that, because you've been unsuccessful in creating a particular sound, the Axe-Fx necessarily cannot produce that sound. Before you start asking for Cliff to spend his time, it only makes sense to try asking for help from other users.

Jay, please reread every post I made on this thread and please find the quote where I said I've tried and was unsuccessful in creating the sound of an La2a or an 1176? How you twist what has been said and come in with your vague slander really comes off as not only midguided, but arrogant. I never said I've been sitting here trying to emulate those two comps. If I had those two comps sitting here in my rack, I wouldn't need to emulate them would I? I have two Distressors, which are nice compressors, but since I'm not a millionaire, I don't have a collection of high end comps sitting around here. Without having them here in person, I certainly would not even attempt to emulate their sound because I would simply be working off memory and what I remember them sounding like and that would be a pointless venture.
Since you're all knowing and all seeing, I'll make you a deal. You send me one of each of those comps and I'll spend some very productive time working on capturing their characters and personalities so I can post the settings for you and others.
...Deal?

 

[Jay Mitchell]

Jay, please reread every post I made on this thread and please find the quote where I said I've tried and was unsuccessful in creating the sound of an La2a or an 1176?

So lemme get this straight: you're saying that you'd really, really like to have those sounds available. But you have neither tried to dial them in yourself nor inquired if someone else here has done so and would be willing to share their settings. Hmmm....

 

[guittarzzan]

Jay, please reread every post I made on this thread and please find the quote where I said I've tried and was unsuccessful in creating the sound of an La2a or an 1176?

So lemme get this straight: you're saying that you'd really, really like to have those sounds available. But you have neither tried to dial them in yourself nor inquired if someone else here has done so and would be willing to share their settings. Hmmm....

So, lemme get this straight. You think I should have tried to dial in the tone, character and response of compressors I don't even have here to compare with? For a guy who loves to act like he knows it all, you sure rattle off a lot of ignorance. Hmmmm....
You know, before you decided to grace this thread with your undeserving arrogance, no one was saying, "you should this or that" or what anyone should be doing or discussing. We were just chatting about an idea or maybe a "daydream". I don't know how many times I've scrolled through threads and found you talking down to people or trying to discredit their comments or opinions. Jay, you eat, sleep, crap and die like the rest of us so just get over yourself, cut the judgemental attitude.
One last thing. It was some time ago, but I called you out, like now, on your talking down to people and I got two PM's thanking me for saying it and that they agreed. A lot of people may just tolerate it because they value your technical contribution here and don't want you to walk away mad. Personally, I don't care if you're a gas pumper or a NASA scientist, you still need to have some humility and treat people with respect. There is some severe overcompensation going on compelling you to talk to people this way. The reasons behind it, I'm sure only you know. Just chill and realize that you're just another member here and not anyone's father, mentor, guidance counselor etc.
Thank you for the few helpful comments you have made on this thread and thank you in advance for not talking down to myself or others on this forum in the future. Thank you.