Are power conditioners snake oil?

shasha said:
But to be really frank about power conditioners I bought one of the Monster 3500's which actually regulates the power and filters it and all kinds of cool shit on paper.
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That Monster does not claim to do any of that. But let's assume it does create 'clean' power. Then electronics convert that 'clean' power into voltages exceeding 300 volts with radio frequency spikes. IOW electronics convert 'cleanest' power into some of the 'dirtiest' in the building. Then superior 'cleaning' circuits inside electronics convert that 'dirtiest' power into rock solid, clean, and stable 3, 5, or 12 volts DC.

Does not matter how clean that Monster makes power. Electronics undo the cleaning. Convert 'clean' or 'dirty' power into the 'dirtiest'. And then superior 'cleaning' circuit inside electronics convert that 'dirtiest' into the 'cleanest' power in the building.

Just another reason why these 'magic boxes' are promoted only by those most easily manipulated by advertising. Those who recommend by learning facts and numbers cite Monsters half truths and advertising lies. Advertising (subjective claims) that easily manipulates a majority who just know by ignoring facts, numbers, and realities.

Did you read its numeric specs? Its cleaning functions, according to Monster's own spec numbers, are equivalent to what a $10 power strip from Walmart does.

markmusicman - if a power loss caused data loss, then your filesystem is obsolete (ie FAT). Data loss was obsoleted by technology that has existed since 1990. Sudden power loss should only destroy unsaved files. If a file is saved to disk and the filesystem is not obsolete, then no files are lost.

Why no issues? Because superior solutions are required to exist inside all electronics.
 
I have witnessed first hand MANY TIMES proof of power conditioners working and doing what everyone says they do... just from a noise perspective.

I've recommended them to many people having issues and it's sold 90% of their problems.

A cousin of mine was using multiple JBL powered speakers (in an arabic band) and his issues were insane.... all solved by good power.

NOW
what is snake oil- the $500 monster power conditioner vs a cheap $100 furman
(in my case I use the cheap furman thats like 60 new- and guitar center charged me like 35 for it
 
I could have spent more time and saved the files that were still on the hard drive, but I decided it wasn't worth the effort, especially since I did not have room to save it anywhere. Now there is no way to retrieve it as I have used an old image to restore my drive. At least I had most of the stuff I use saved.
 
I've said it before; spikes, generators with funky power, and bad wiring can happen to anyone. I've been on stage and watched my partner's Mesa go up in smoke (literally) while my gear was protected as my power supply shut down the over-voltage. You can do without it if you choose, but I won't. As Luke said earlier, don't go cheap, go quality. Like the Axe Fx... you pay once and it's all upside from there on.
 
I have a cheap $80 Furman and it appears to work great. While it doesn't appear to filter out noise (plugged into an extremely noisy outlet and the conditioner did nothing), it sure is handy as a master power switch!

We run a power distro off a 220v plug anywhere we play, save for 1 place. In the interest of full disclosure, that place fried my axe fx 2 prior to getting the conditioner and I had to send it in for a full motherboard replacement. I've played there several times since getting it and so far so good.
 
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a decent pc can't hurt. even if you don't buy into the blurb, they still provide pretty neat power distribution for your rack.

however, poor earthing is the biggest worry - you can replace gear, but it's best to avoid getting fried.
 
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Another +1 for the voltage regulator solution. I once auditioned for a band setup in a basement, and every time I switched in some rack units for a solo, my rig went silent.

After some troubleshooting and some observation, I noted that one rack based DSP unit was in a constant reboot-loop. A meter showed that the wall voltage on my side of the room was only at 103vac! The digital unit's power supply output wasn't sufficient to keep the device from power cycling.

With a true regulator (Furman AR-1215), this is a correctable problem - a power conditioner wouldn't have done the trick. This also protects against shaky voltage at venues. What I'm not positive about is whether the regulated voltage is 'cleaned up' noise-wise, etc. - ???

I also have one question about the consumer-grade Furman power conditioners though: usually a surge protecting device 'commits suicide' (MOV) in order to save you from a surge, right? I was reading something in Furman's literature online the other day that seems to imply that their newest technology called SMP is able to absorb spikes/surges without damage. Does this confirm that the lower cost devices without SMP will simply die if they encounter a surge? Does anyone know if there is any benefit to the SMP offering (other than possible longevity)?

Thanks!
 
plyall said:
I also have one question about the consumer-grade Furman power conditioners though: usually a surge protecting device 'commits suicide' (MOV) in order to save you from a surge, right? I was reading something in Furman's literature online the other day that seems to imply that their newest technology called SMP is able to absorb spikes/surges without damage.
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A surge too tiny to overwhelm protection inside electronic's power supply can also destroy the MOV in an undersized protector. That increases sales and gets many to recite an urban myth, "My protector sacrificed itself to save my electronics." Nonsense. Superior protection inside electronics saves the electronics. And remains functional.

Open up a protector. A thermal fuse (typically less than 1 amp) connects MOVs to AC mains. A surge too small to harm electronics can cause that MOV to burn; cause a fire. So a thermal fuse disconnects the MOV as fast as possible. And leaves a surge connected to electronics. That causes so many to wildly speculate, "it sacrificed itself to save ..."

If a protector fails, then it did no protection. If that fuse does not disconnect MOVs fast enough, then a house fire has sometimes resulted. These problems are made obvious by numbers. A 'hundreds of joules' surge does not harm electronics. A typically destructive surge is hundreds of thousands of joules. What happens if a power strip (hundreds of joules) tries to absorb hundreds of thousands of joules? Either a fuse disconnects as fast as possible. OR the protector creates a fire.

Read the amount of energy a Furman claims to absorb? If that much energy can be absorbed, then we are also capturing direct lightning strikes to power the electric grid. The Furman only claims to absorb tiny (near zero) energy. Protection already inside electronic power supplies can also harmlessly capture and use that energy.

Protection is about dissipating hundreds of thousands of joules. To promote mythical protection, many manufacturers avoid that number; fear consumers will suddenly be informed by that number. A completely different and effective solution is for surges with that number.

Ask the damning question. Where do hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate? An answer defines two completely different devices that unfortunately share a same name. Informed consumers earth one 'whole house' protector to protect everything - for tens or 100 times less money. Then hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate harmlessly outside the building. Are not inside hunting for earth destructively via electronics.

What does voltage regulation? Electronics with better (universal) power supplies work on any voltage from 85 to 265 volts. The power supply does voltage regulation. Normal voltage for all 120 volt appliances is even 130 volts. Because voltage regulation is best done by the equipment. Do you need better regulation? That's what a universal supply does (as found on all mobile phones, laptop computers, etc)
 
Westom -

First, thanks for the comprehensive reply. I'm going to need to read it through a few times more to capture it all.

On the matter of a 'better' universal power supply and voltage regulation, you are at the mercy of the device's manufacturer. If they didn't make that a priority or cut corners, you're in a situation where you have to get an external solution.

In the specific case I stated (loss of function in a rack mounted DSP unit by Digitech), I was able to resolve the problem using an external regulator. Empirical proof that sometimes this kind of treatment is the only solution.
 
Power went out 3 times over the weekend due to storms, all my gear was on for all the events. All my gear survived. I don't use power conditioners and I don't think they are required in Canada.
 
Not required in Ireland, the UK, and countries in Western Europe. I haven't had playing experience elsewhere, but Australia and New Zealand also seem to have stable enough mains power supplies.
 
plyall said:
On the matter of a 'better' universal power supply and voltage regulation, you are at the mercy of the device's manufacturer.
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Read the Axe-FX specifications? It has a universal supply that regulates voltages from 85 to 265 volts into rock solid and unchanging output voltages. It already has regulation many times superior to what a Furman or anything equivalent claims to accomplish.
 
Well here ya go,
I have two new AKG wireless mics. These are the newer digital types and I must say the sound really good. Very low noise floor and very open. I am comparing these to some older sennheiser analog mics. The problem is the fairly constant clicks and pops we are experiencing. After exhausting all possibilities of the mic system itself, I resorted to plugging the transmitters into my old furman power conditioner and the problem is solved. Noise on the power line is injecting itself into the circuitry - I have seen it many times. The capacitive filter in the AKG simply does not respond quickly enough to catch these fairly low level but very fast voltage spikes. The inductive filtering inside the furman, however, is adequate to catch and remove these spikes. I have many times ran into noisy AC in various clubs that I have played or ran sound in and without exception I have been able to clean it up with an understanding of ground planes and power conditioning equipment.

The idea that power conditioner's don't have a useful place in certain systems reveals your lack of experience/knowledge of such systems.
 
It is not a matter of your country's power grid. By the time the power gets to the night club where the compressors (motors) in the coolers, neon lights, and improper wiring techniques and ground problems get hold of it, there can be a ton of noise riding on the ac wave. Plug your tube amp into that and be amazed at sufficient power conditioning as it promptly amplifies your stratocaster and the neon buzz from that cool looking light.
 
As far as a ups. We had a brown out the other day. It was like a one second flicker but it was enough to cause my nice digital board to reboot during which time we had no sound.
I have been meaning to get a ups...
 
guitarmike said:
The idea that power conditioner's don't have a useful place in certain systems reveals your lack of experience/knowledge of such systems.
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Plenty of power conditioner stuff is total snake oil. And it works. When sold at inflated prices, then so many can hear the improvement.

Monster does that often. They sold $7 speaker wire for $70. Then many could even hear the difference.

Some conditioners claim to filter. AC mains filters must be on the order of 25 or 50 pounds to accomplish a significant improvement. Many filters in power conditioners are electrically equivalent to knots tied in wires. Then make subjective claims. Charge $hundreds. Then many somehow can hear the difference.

Power conditioner is a phrase to magically claim it solves all types of anomalies. No conditioner can or does. An honest conditioner defines each anomaly. And puts a number to its solution for each. Most who recommend conditioners have no idea which anomaly creates what bad sound. But it is expensive. So it must be doing something good. Then they can hear the difference. Scams are so easily promoted this way.

The Axe-Fx already has voltage regulation many times greater than what a power conditioner does. And still many just know a conditioner must do better regulation.

A power conditioner is purchased to solve one particular problem. No power conditioner cures all or even most anomalies. Better ones state what it 'conditions' ... with numbers. You don't even need know what the numbers mean. The numbers say that the 1% who know this stuff can cite the lie. IOW just the existence of spec numbers is a major increase in credibility.
 
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i created a thread just now without looking at this one. so im going to ask the same question here again. what are your opinions on the pb 10 pro? as i just saw one at a local music shop, I don't know much about power conditioners or rack units for that matter so let me know what you guys think of this unit to protect the axe
 
I have been at for very long time also. While there is truth in what you are saying - the thing about the wire is insane for sure, and there are units that are comprised of a couple of mov's and a fancy light that really do nothing at all and cost lots of money. That does not mean that there are not situations where proper filtering equipment - and furman makes such equipment- is not only useful but necessary. The axe is not like most equipment. As a design engineer, certainly you know that the paradigm is do it as cheaply as possible. I would venture to say that most items have the minimum adequate circuitry for their power supply's. Also, the size requirements are power dependent and many pieces of audio equipment have minimal power requirements. I know this from 32 years of actually solving these problems in many different venues.

I simply mean to point out that a blanket statement of power conditioners being taboo is just inaccurate. Of course there is snake oil out there and of course there may be conditions where the typical power conditioner simply will not do the job, but many times, with proper usage, such equipment has its advantages.

Want to talk about the series of 6000 amp anodizing rectifiers I designed the control system for and the filtering they required? I had an engineer tell me that so many farads would be necessary to capture certain spikes that where actually cause by a ground loop problem. I instructed him to go to radio shack and by the capacitors...he went to radio shack and bought the capacitors. He was fired shortly after that.
 
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