Are monitors ONLY meant for studio use?

[dsouza]

I already have a pair of Mackie Monitors for studio use.

It is 4" so the sound is ok for a small studio /room.

But for gigging with the AX8 would people only recommend the FRFR units like the Headrush, Red Sound, etc or would you ever recommend 8" monitors like the Yamaha series?

I don't find monitors easy to transport and they show every glitch in one's playing. Maybe good for recording but for playing live you don't want every little mistake showing.

Any comments on monitors and the gigging musician?

 

[Jeronimo]

Monitors are not the suitable solution for gigging, the typical studio monitor is designed as a near-field monitor where you have an optimal distance from the listening position to the monitor. This means that you only have the optimal experience in that sweet spot. For gigging you want to use a solution that spreads the sound in a much wider range.

 

[dsouza]

Monitors are not the suitable solution for gigging, the typical studio monitor is designed as a near-field monitor where you have an optimal distance from the listening position to the monitor. This means that you only have the optimal experience in that sweet spot. For gigging you want to use a solution that spreads the sound in a much wider range.

@Jeronimo

For a wedding banquet hall for example, couldn't you place TWO 8" monitors in stereo on stands spread out across the dance floor?

I'm talking a small reception like 100-200 people.

These could also be used in my home for playing in front of a small crowd or in my small bedroom studio for recording.

Just curious.

I know an FRFR solution like a Headrush etc can go out to FOH and reach 35,000 people. But how does a Headrush or two, sound in a small room?

Can I have just one solution for both a small room and a crowd of 35,000 people? Will two FRFR units running in stereo like a Headrush do it? Can it run at minimal volume like WHISPER quiet in a small bedroom and still produce kickass quality sound, or does the volume need to be turned up to achieve optimal effect?

 

[chris]

they show every glitch in one's playing. Maybe good for recording but for playing live you don't want every little mistake showing.

how is this different from any other speaker?

I know an FRFR solution like a Headrush etc can go out to FOH and reach 35,000 people.

Headrush speakers cannot reach 35,000 people.

Can I have just one solution for both a small room and a crowd of 35,000 people?

not really. the wattage needed to get to 35,000 people is a huge system, so it's lower limits are louder than something small.

use speakers designed for live performances. studio monitors are meant for the studio.

 

[Jeronimo]

@Jeronimo

For a wedding banquet hall for example, couldn't you place TWO 8" monitors in stereo on stands spread out across the dance floor?

I'm talking a small reception like 100-200 people.

These could also be used in my home for playing in front of a small crowd or in my small bedroom studio for recording.

Just curious.

I know an FRFR solution like a Headrush etc can go out to FOH and reach 35,000 people. But how does a Headrush or two, sound in a small room?

Can I have just one solution for both a small room and a crowd of 35,000 people? Will two FRFR units running in stereo like a Headrush do it? Can it run at minimal volume like WHISPER quiet in a small bedroom and still produce kickass quality sound, or does the volume need to be turned up to achieve optimal effect?

For a small bedroom, studio monitors are a good solution. I do not have experience with the Headrush myself, but I do expect that those should work too. I did read mixed reviews on the sound quality (especially in relation to the “flatness” of their response) but again, I don’t have any experience with these. In my bedroom sized office I used the Yamaha HS7 which work fine for me.

With the Headrush you will not reach 35000 people. For that you need a PA system, so going FOH from your Fractal, and you could use the Headrush to get your own back line sound.

 

[marsonic]

Studio monitors are just speakers. The whole "revealing" or "flat" or "unflattering" thing is down to individual speakers. There are more and less accurate versions of basically every "marketing category" of speakers out there.

But, studio monitors are not appropriate for stage use. If nothing else, the exposed cones will not survive touring.

Years and years ago, I DJ'd a house party where the main system went down with some time left. After realizing that I couldn't fix it, my solution was to turn my booth monitors around to let the party finish...it worked. They held their own well enough, but it's far from ideal.

As for a headrush being enough for 35k people...just no. I went to a concert on Wednesday for <1500 people and they were still using line arrays and probably 30 kW not including subs.

 

[dsouza]

For a small bedroom, studio monitors are a good solution. I do not have experience with the Headrush myself, but I do expect that those should work too. I did read mixed reviews on the sound quality (especially in relation to the “flatness” of their response) but again, I don’t have any experience with these. In my bedroom sized office I used the Yamaha HS7 which work fine for me.

With the Headrush you will not reach 35000 people. For that you need a PA system, so going FOH from your Fractal, and you could use the Headrush to get your own back line sound.

@Jeronimo
I'm not going FOH from my fractal.. You can also go FOH from the headrush.

 

[dsouza]

Studio monitors are just speakers. The whole "revealing" or "flat" or "unflattering" thing is down to individual speakers. There are more and less accurate versions of basically every "marketing category" of speakers out there.

But, studio monitors are not appropriate for stage use. If nothing else, the exposed cones will not survive touring.

Years and years ago, I DJ'd a house party where the main system went down with some time left. After realizing that I couldn't fix it, my solution was to turn my booth monitors around to let the party finish...it worked. They held their own well enough, but it's far from ideal.

As for a headrush being enough for 35k people...just no. I went to a concert on Wednesday for <1500 people and they were still using line arrays and probably 30 kW not including subs.

@marsonic
Are you saying practicing my music 6 hrs a day out of my mackie monitors will destroy them in short order? I have the volume up at 60-75%.

 

[marsonic]

@marsonic
Are you saying practicing my music 6 hrs a day out of my mackie monitors will destroy them in short order? I have the volume up at 60-75%.

No. No faster than anything else.

You mentioned "playing live". Carrying studio monitors around to live venues and rehearsal spaces is asking for something to get physically shoved through the cones and/or for the knobs to get broken off.

 

[trixdropd]

As was already said, monitors are usually nearfields. Are you gonna have a 6’ triangle between yourself and the speakers on stage? Nope.

The headrush speakers fill the room. They project. 8” studio monitors sound great, in the close sweet spot.

Two different applications.

If you wanna do a concert with 8” Yamahas, I’d suggest an 12’x’18’ room with 4-5 people in the listening position.

 

[dsouza]

@trixdropd
@marsonic


OK a FRFR over a monitor for performing makes sense. Both the HR 108 and 112 are within my budget. Right now I'm in a small studio room and not performing but I'd like to test it out. If it can replace my AC10 and pedals I can sell them off eventually.

Just a question does anyone own either a 108 or 112? I hear excellent things about the 112 but fewer people buy it. Can it be whisper quiet as well in a small room and still maintain speaker integrity? I would like to use it in my studio as well as live gigs.

Remember, I use my AC10 tube amp on 1 watt in my studio with pedals. It's loud as hell but no complaints from neighbours so far! On 3-4 watts I could play a small gig.. On 5 or more watts keep up with a drummer provided he's not a real banger.

The goal is get as much versatility out of the HR as my AC10 but for the purpose of Multi FX/ Amp Simulators not pedals.

What are most people recommending the HR 108 or 112? I'm torn between them!

 

[Bruce Sokolovic]

Headrush speakers cannot reach 35,000 people.

What if they’re really, really quiet and standing very close together ?

 

[Greg Ferguson]

Can it be whisper quiet as well in a small room and still maintain speaker integrity? I would like to use it in my studio as well as live gigs.

Integrity? As in not fall apart? Or as in will their sound quality change? The sound will definitely change, that’s partly psycho-acoustics and partly because they focus their sound differently.

A near-field monitor is a completely different speaker and cabinet than a FRFR floor cabinet or guitar cabinet, and there’s no real way to get one to substitute for the other, their designs are too far apart. With sufficient EQ you might get the 108 to sound decent but, at the same time, you could make the near-field sound even better with EQ. The FRFR has to run a lot louder and take a lot of abuse that you would never want to subject the monitors to.

My recommendation is to get decent near field monitors initially, learn to get a good sound with those, while saving your money toward good quality FRFR speakers and buy them when you actually need them. The sound through near-field monitors should translate easily to a good FRFR.

 

[marsonic]

As was already said, monitors are usually nearfields. Are you gonna have a 6’ triangle between yourself and the speakers on stage? Nope.

The headrush speakers fill the room. They project. 8” studio monitors sound great, in the close sweet spot.

Two different applications.

If you wanna do a concert with 8” Yamahas, I’d suggest an 12’x’18’ room with 4-5 people in the listening position.

They are different applications, but "nearfield" means that they can be used close, not that that can only be used close. Nearfields can fill a room just fine as long as they can handle the volume you need. Not using studio speakers for performance is more about the physical construction...they're not really made to be moved around a lot. I listen to nearfields from 10-20' away all the time...they're attached to my TV.

@trixdropd
@marsonic


OK a FRFR over a monitor for performing makes sense. Both the HR 108 and 112 are within my budget. Right now I'm in a small studio room and not performing but I'd like to test it out. If it can replace my AC10 and pedals I can sell them off eventually.

Just a question does anyone own either a 108 or 112? I hear excellent things about the 112 but fewer people buy it. Can it be whisper quiet as well in a small room and still maintain speaker integrity? I would like to use it in my studio as well as live gigs.

Remember, I use my AC10 tube amp on 1 watt in my studio with pedals. It's loud as hell but no complaints from neighbours so far! On 3-4 watts I could play a small gig.. On 5 or more watts keep up with a drummer provided he's not a real banger.

The goal is get as much versatility out of the HR as my AC10 but for the purpose of Multi FX/ Amp Simulators not pedals.

What are most people recommending the HR 108 or 112? I'm torn between them!

Tube watts and monitor/frfr watts aren't really the same thing. I mean...they are exactly the same thing...but the applications are so different that the numbers don't correlate.

In general, the power rating of an amplifier is taken when the amp is distorting a specific amount, very often 1% THD. They can obviously play quieter (just feed them a smaller signal, they'll distort less and potentially play quieter). They can also play louder, literally outputting more power, which is the area under the curve of their output voltage, which gets "bigger" as the signal they're outputting looks more and more like a square wave.

For monitors, FRFRs, or PA speakers, you don't want distortion. Which means you need headroom. Twice the volume at the same THD basically takes 10x the power.

So, as an example, for my small-ish room, a 5W guitar amp into an efficient 12" speaker is easily too loud for comfort unless I'm just using it as a clean pedal platform.

BUT....I use 300W monoblocks on my main monitors and a pair of 600W subs. In one application, 5W is too much. In the other application, in the same room, 1800W is fine. It's a bit overkill (for the mains; my subs are adequate but not overkill), but it's fine because I can just turn down the level from my monitor controller, and the headroom is nice to have...my ears will give up before the amps start audibly distorting.

So, basically, don't buy 1W PA/Monitor/FRFR speakers because you like a 1W guitar amp. They won't sound clean loud enough to be useful.

As far as the headrushes.....I haven't heard them in person. If I need stage sound in the future, I'm probably just going to use a guitar cab wired for dual mono and a 2x40 to 2x100W SS power amp because I apparently have a favorite speaker and don't really want or need FRFR outside of my IEMs.

 

[dsouza]

I watched a fantastic DJ use monitors at a wedding banquet hall of about 150 guests.

The monitors lit up the dance floor. They were placed on stands about 20 feet apart . It was a small dance floor but most weddings are not over 100-200 people anyways.

I understand for playing in a loud nightclub venue with 1000+ people monitors would never hold up.

I currently use Mackie 4" monitor and they are good. I never go past half way on the volume dial.. they are connected to my AX8 through a Scarlett 2i2 audio interface.

I also use these monitors to hear me play in my small studio room or in front of a few guests. However, what benefit would I get from upgrading to better monitors in this case like yamaha hs7 100 watt series monitors? Any advantage going that route that would benefit my particular setup?

They are within my price range but I could easily get a single HR 112 for that price or two 108's. But like someone said perhaps get the monitor sound awesome them translate that sound to FRFR when I need it down the line.

There's also a famous tribute guitarist I was talking to who says he doesn't ever use FRFR with his AX8, FM3, or AXE FX 3. He simply connects them directly to the venues FOH and has the return signal fed back to his earphones so he can hear himself on stage. Does this make sense? Do you really need a backline? Anyone prefer this approach? It seems less cumbersome. Why FRFR at all?

 

[Jeronimo]

I watched a fantastic DJ use monitors at a wedding banquet hall of about 150 guests.

The monitors lit up the dance floor. They were placed on stands about 20 feet apart . It was a small dance floor but most weddings are not over 100-200 people anyways.

I understand for playing in a loud nightclub venue with 1000+ people monitors would never hold up.

I currently use Mackie 4" monitor and they are good. I never go past half way on the volume dial.. they are connected to my AX8 through a Scarlett 2i2 audio interface.

I also use these monitors to hear me play in my small studio room or in front of a few guests. However, what benefit would I get from upgrading to better monitors in this case like yamaha hs7 100 watt series monitors? Any advantage going that route that would benefit my particular setup?

They are within my price range but I could easily get a single HR 112 for that price or two 108's. But like someone said perhaps get the monitor sound awesome them translate that sound to FRFR when I need it down the line.

There's also a famous tribute guitarist I was talking to who says he doesn't ever use FRFR with his AX8, FM3, or AXE FX 3. He simply connects them directly to the venues FOH and has the return signal fed back to his earphones so he can hear himself on stage. Does this make sense? Do you really need a backline? Anyone prefer this approach? It seems less cumbersome. Why FRFR at all?

As already stated multiple times by multiple people: Nearfield monitors have a different purpose than FRFR speakers.

You can use FRFR in case there is no FOH system, or use them as backline. Going quiet stage and have the FOH mix in IEM will work.

The comment about translating a good monitor sound to FRFR is that when you use good monitors when you create your presets, the sound will translate to a similar sound on FRFR speakers (maybe with some Eq tweaks). You will need to create your presets at a decent volume, there are plenty of posts about that.

Just forget about using monitors to play for an audience larger than a handful of people.

 

[Bruce Sokolovic]

The whole problem with writing sounds that translate is it’s not an exact science. The room plays such a big part in what and how you hear. A good live guitar player needs to be able to compensate and compromise. Or use in ears.

 

[marsonic]

The whole problem with writing sounds that translate is it’s not an exact science. The room plays such a big part in what and how you hear. A good live guitar player needs to be able to compensate and compromise. Or use in ears.

IEMs don't actually solve that problem for anyone but you. You will hear a consistent sound, which may improve your performance. But, it won't improve FOH sound.

Theoretically, it's the FOH engineer's job to make you sound good in the room. Assuming you're using a PA. And even if you're the FOH engineer, that's just another hat for you to wear.

The good news is that most concert venues, even the small ones, are so noisy and so loud that it's likely to be exciting as long as the mix isn't terrible. And you'll probably get some boom & sizzle from Equal Loudness Contours, which generally makes most things sound better, though it can also make the guitar sound disappear. I watched (listened to) that happen a few weeks ago. Three bands, three modeling rigs through FOH (didn't see a cab), all kind of scooped modern metal-ish industrial sounds. None of them were that guitar focused, but 2 of the bands' guitars were barely there, more pads than the focus of the songs. I don't know if that was intentional or a side-effect of how they were set up. But...I've also heard other people complain that a lot of metal bands (using real amps; boogie rectifier scooped sound and similar) had their guitar sounds basically disappear when they played outside.

But, yes....that's why mixing engineers and especially mastering engineers wind up so obsessed with their speakers & room....it kind of needs to be a really accurate/nice version of a balanced system so that the music has a decent chance of translating no matter what stupid system it's played on. There is science to it....but it's not the simplest thing.

The ironic thing is that "normal guitarists" (the old-school peeps who don't use modeling) seem like they hardly worry about this at all. They get their amp and cab, which ticks the right boxes and sounds good to them wherever they try it out and where they've used it before....generally, they put it wherever it can fit on the stage (or the stage is based around their amps if it's a big guitar-focused concert)...they probably don't worry about the room, and they can't do much about it anyway except leave it in the hands of the FOH engineer (if there is one). And it generally works out. Maybe they say it's "sounding good/bad today" from time to time.

I kinda feel like any of the modelers has such great tools to tune it both in general and to the room....maybe not as precisely as Sonarworks/Trinnov/etc., but reasonably well...that if you get a sound check, you're -at worst- no worse off than if you were using a more traditional rig and probably in much better shape.

 

[Bruce Sokolovic]

IEMs don't actually solve that problem for anyone but you. You will hear a consistent sound, which may improve your performance. But, it won't improve FOH sound.

Theoretically, it's the FOH engineer's job to make you sound good in the room. Assuming you're using a PA. And even if you're the FOH engineer, that's just another hat for you to wear.

The good news is that most concert venues, even the small ones, are so noisy and so loud that it's likely to be exciting as long as the mix isn't terrible. And you'll probably get some boom & sizzle from Equal Loudness Contours, which generally makes most things sound better, though it can also make the guitar sound disappear. I watched (listened to) that happen a few weeks ago. Three bands, three modeling rigs through FOH (didn't see a cab), all kind of scooped modern metal-ish industrial sounds. None of them were that guitar focused, but 2 of the bands' guitars were barely there, more pads than the focus of the songs. I don't know if that was intentional or a side-effect of how they were set up. But...I've also heard other people complain that a lot of metal bands (using real amps; boogie rectifier scooped sound and similar) had their guitar sounds basically disappear when they played outside.

But, yes....that's why mixing engineers and especially mastering engineers wind up so obsessed with their speakers & room....it kind of needs to be a really accurate/nice version of a balanced system so that the music has a decent chance of translating no matter what stupid system it's played on. There is science to it....but it's not the simplest thing.

The ironic thing is that "normal guitarists" (the old-school peeps who don't use modeling) seem like they hardly worry about this at all. They get their amp and cab, which ticks the right boxes and sounds good to them wherever they try it out and where they've used it before....generally, they put it wherever it can fit on the stage (or the stage is based around their amps if it's a big guitar-focused concert)...they probably don't worry about the room, and they can't do much about it anyway except leave it in the hands of the FOH engineer (if there is one). And it generally works out. Maybe they say it's "sounding good/bad today" from time to time.

I kinda feel like any of the modelers has such great tools to tune it both in general and to the room....maybe not as precisely as Sonarworks/Trinnov/etc., but reasonably well...that if you get a sound check, you're -at worst- no worse off than if you were using a more traditional rig and probably in much better shape.

They don’t even solve the problem for me. I hate them. But everyone needs to do their job and it’s not my place to shape what’s coming out of the PA. Mongo just pawn in game of life.
I use a wedge. Sometimes it sounds great. Other times not so much. Due to factors outside of my control. It doesn’t always need fixing. I can play through anything above awful and get by. I’m really more concerned with what’s coming out of the mains sounds great.

 

[dsouza]

I have a problem. I recorded a preset U2 Vertigo for my AX8 on my mackie cr4 multimedia monitors. The preset sounds amazing on my headphones and through my vox ac10 tube amp (I set it on clean (read: gain close to 0) so there's virtually no coloring with amp models put through it) using the AX8. But the presets sound like crap on my monitors in retrospect.

Is that supposed to be a good or bad thing? Are my monitors supposed to sound like crap so they catch every flaw? My monitors cost $250 CAD for a pair. I am wondering if I upgrade to Yamaha HS5 for $500 will it be much better sounding or sound even worse (read: catch even more flaws)?