Anyone ever have to relocate a TOM bridge?

pharmd07

Experienced
I bought a new Heritage H150 over the summer. At first I thought all was well until I changed the strings. I had to top wrap the strings over the tailpiece because they were hitting the TOM bridge behind the saddles. That’s no big deal. The problems started when tried to intonate the bridge.

Low E and A string saddles are all the way forward, and I still cannot get them to intonate as they are both 5-10 cents flat at the 12th fret. The other strings will intonate, but they are also almost completely all the way forward. The H150 came with a Faber Tone-Lock TOM bridge.

I had a spare Gotoh TOM bridge laying about. I swapped it on the guitar, which did not solve the problem.

The rest of the setup is fine. The action is 4/64” at the 17th fret on the low and high E strings. Relief is 0.002” at the 7th fret. Intonation was set each time with new strings.

So, I’m nearly certain the bridge was placed too far back and needs to be moved toward the neck. is this possible? Any other options that anyone is aware of?
 
Don’t harmonica bridges have more range? I don’t have any experience with them, but that may be worth looking into.
 
Measure it to see if it's in spec. Here's what Stew Mac has listed for 24.75" scale length guitars:

Tune-o-matic style bridges
1.gif
24.811" (± 0.030") from nut to center of treble-side post. Mount bass-side post 1/16"-1/8" further from the nut.

My Edwards Les Paul Clone's TOM bridge falls within those specs.

If it needs to be moved, it's doable. The proper way is to drill out and plug the existing post holes with dowels and then redrill in the correct spots.
 
I've relocated something like this. Had to move the tailpiece on my of my builds a little more backwards. I just filled the old holes with a wood dowel and titebond and then redrilled the holes. Worked fine.
 
Measure it to see if it's in spec. Here's what Stew Mac has listed for 24.75" scale length guitars:

Tune-o-matic style bridges
1.gif
24.811" (± 0.030") from nut to center of treble-side post. Mount bass-side post 1/16"-1/8" further from the nut.

My Edwards Les Paul Clone's TOM bridge falls within those specs.

If it needs to be moved, it's doable. The proper way is to drill out and plug the existing post holes with dowels and then redrill in the correct spots.

I don't have a very precise ruler long enough to measure this, but I used a tape measure (marked in 1/16") and tried to measure as close as I could down to 1/32". The treble side is 24.781", and the bass side is 25". If I'm doing the calculations correctly, the bass side might be a little too far back? But on the the other had, the treble side is within the low range of the data you shared, which would indicate it's already slightly closer to the bridge.

Now I'm baffled.
 
I don't have a very precise ruler long enough to measure this, but I used a tape measure (marked in 1/16") and tried to measure as close as I could down to 1/32". The treble side is 24.781", and the bass side is 25". If I'm doing the calculations correctly, the bass side might be a little too far back? But on the the other had, the treble side is within the low range of the data you shared, which would indicate it's already slightly closer to the bridge.

Now I'm baffled.
How are you intonating? Are you using the open strings? If so, maybe a nut issue?

Try the John Suhr approach using 3rd and 15th fret to see if that makes a difference.
 
How are you intonating? Are you using the open strings? If so, maybe a nut issue?

Try the John Suhr approach using 3rd and 15th fret to see if that makes a difference.

I am using the open string method. I’ll try intonating at the third/fifteenth fret once I get another new bridge on the guitar. Maybe I’ll eventually find a bridge that works better.

I know the nut needs work. The headstock, while shaped differently from Gibson’s, still suffers from the same design flaw. The headstock pitch and the 3+3 tuner layout is just like Gibson’s, resulting in horrid tuning stability. I’ve tried lubrication, locking tuners, the String Butler, and the Truglide with no success. I’ll have to have a new nut made by my guitar tech. He did wonders on my Gibson Les Paul’s nut and its tuning stability. Hopefully he can do the same with this Heritage.

I’m frustrated that I got suckered into buying a Heritage with the belief it was a higher quality version of the Gibson Les Paul. That couldn’t be further from the truth. Its intonation and tuning are terrible, and the nitro finish is pretty sticky, so I’m constantly having to clean the finish. On the other hand the neck shape and fretboard feel great, and the tone is awesome.

Maybe I got a lemon. It has taken FAR more work to get this guitar up to par compared to by Gibson. I’m certainly not buying another Heritage again!
 
I am using the open string method. I’ll try intonating at the third fret once I get another new bridge on the guitar. Maybe I’ll eventually find a bridge that works better.
The reason I suggested it is that if the nut is the cause then there's no need to change the bridge. ;)
 
The reason I suggested it is that if the nut is the cause then there's no need to change the bridge. ;)

Indeed! I just want to completely rule out the bridge before I drive several hours to have a tech work on the nut. I placed an order for a new bridge 3 weeks ago and I’m still waiting for it to get here. The $20 Gotoh bridge I had laying around isn’t that good and rattles like crazy.
 
Absolutely no way will it be in the wrong place. First up they have jigs or CNC for this position .
With new strings not bedded down because of an unhelpful break angle the intonation point will be thrown forward actually in-front of the contact point making it seem like your bridge is in the wrong place . This is far more common with acoustics but it can happen on tunamatics. Press the string down between the bridge pickup and abr1 several times gentley with your finger and the intonation point will now be back on the saddle . It happens because the string is not vibrating properly at the contact point so it starts where it can and that is in-front. Do this and then reintonate with the 3rd and 15th fret method and it will all be back.
 
AND to avoid top wrapping or touching the body of the bridge with the string all you needed to do was raise the tailpiece. It is almost never optimised when just screwed down flat.
 
I've relocated something like this. Had to move the tailpiece on my of my builds a little more backwards. I just filled the old holes with a wood dowel and titebond and then redrilled the holes. Worked fine.
The "my builds" is the relevant part here . His won't be installed in the wrong position.
 
Absolutely no way will it be in the wrong place. First up they have jigs or CNC for this position .
With new strings not bedded down because of an unhelpful break angle the intonation point will be thrown forward actually in-front of the contact point making it seem like your bridge is in the wrong place . This is far more common with acoustics but it can happen on tunamatics. Press the string down between the bridge pickup and abr1 several times gentley with your finger and the intonation point will now be back on the saddle . It happens because the string is not vibrating properly at the contact point so it starts where it can and that is in-front. Do this and then reintonate with the 3rd and 15th fret method and it will all be back.

Thanks for your help! I’ll try to mess around with the setup some more this weekend. I don’t know why this guitar has been so hard to set up. My other 12 guitars give me no problems.

Is it ok to message you if I have any questions?

Thanks again!
 
UDPDATE!

Firstly, I want to thank everyone for their help and suggestions. Things are looking better for my Heritage H150. Here's what I did:

1) I got my new TOM bridge, which is a Graptech Resomax, the one with the metal saddles. It was easy to install. This time, I didn't top wrap the strings over the tailpiece, but rather raised the tailpiece until the strings were no longer touching the back of the bridge. I had to raise the tailpiece about 1/2" up, which seemed like a lot ( @Andy Eagle - is this normal?). The tailpiece looks pretty ugly like this, but it works fine, and I don't hear any detriment to the tone of the guitar. In fact, I think the guitar sounds better than ever. Probably just placebo effect.

2) I intonated the guitar using the 3rd/15th fret as suggested by @unix-guy and @Andy Eagle . I was able to intonate the guitar without running out of saddle room on the bridge. I don't have much room left, and the saddles for the wound strings are almost all the way forward, but the intonation is good. So that makes me very happy.

3) I used some naptha to clean the stickiness off the back of the neck of the guitar. Dan Erlewine praises the cleaning power of naptha in a million videos, so I thought I would give it a try. Works great. Smells good. Probably killed off some brain cells. At least I did wear gloves.

Strangely enough, the guitar is staying much more in tune now. Not perfect, but better. I took off the stupid String Butler, which was worthless. It left a small but barely noticeable indentation on my headstock. Oh well. I can now say my guitar has been relic'd!

I'm much more happy with the guitar now. I was beginning to wonder if I was stuck with a lemon (especially since it is a lemon burst...hah!). Hopefully it will continue to play well and be cooperative. The guitar is a beauty to behold, and sounds great.
 
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