Any tips for cutting through live with FRFR

[rickgk]

Use a different IR.

I think that's what I'll need to try, I switched over to the mark series models after the first gig as I can really push the mids on those models, but yes I think I need to cycle through cab options at volume with the band.

 

[jlynnb1]

yeah, i played with it tilted as well...with a very loud live drummer, bass and another electric guitar...was asked to turn down more than to turn up. never had any issues. what is your base tone/amp/ir??

 

[rickgk]

yeah, i played with it tilted as well...with a very loud live drummer, bass and another electric guitar...was asked to turn down more than to turn up. never had any issues. what is your base tone/amp/ir??

I was initially gravitating toward the plexi models but changed to the mesa mark's in the hope of cutting through better as they are quite mid heavy. I generally use the stock ML IR's.

 

[RoshRoslin]

I was initially gravitating toward the plexi models but changed to the mesa mark's in the hope of cutting through better as they pretty are mid heavy. I generally use the stock ML IR's.

Personally, I feel like the Mesa Marks and most mesa amps are actually scooped in the midrange. Upper mids from Plexis and the British family of amps cut through like you wouldn't believe. Especially live, with the right IRs. Listen to the JCM800 at stock default settings and you'll hear what type of "midrange" tone you should use to cut better in a mix. That nasal, brash nastiness sits perfectly under cymbals from a drumkit and vocals, but above the electric Bass and kick drum.

Also, the ML IRs that are stock in the Factory presets use Ribbon mics (The M160). Ribbon mics are also "scooped", because they capture a lot of the low end and high end of a signal. It may sound full by itself, but add a live band in and you disappear. Use IRs that use dynamic mics such as the Shure SM57 or the E906 to hear more midrange and where the guitar should sit in a live mix. Mikko has some great IRs in the cab packs that use a combination of Dynamic mics (for more midrange and 'cut' in the mix) with ribbon mics (which add more "fullness" and "body")

 

[rickgk]

Personally, I feel like the Mesa Marks and most mesa amps are actually scooped in the midrange. Upper mids from Plexis and the British family of amps cut through like you wouldn't believe. Especially live, with the right IRs. Listen to the JCM800 at stock default settings and you'll hear what type of "midrange" tone you should use to cut better in a mix. That nasal, brash nastiness sits perfectly under cymbals from a drumkit and vocals, but above the electric Bass and kick drum.

Also, the ML IRs that are stock in the Factory presets use Ribbon mics (The M160). Ribbon mics are also "scooped", because they capture a lot of the low end and high end of a signal. It may sound full by itself, but add a live band in and you disappear. Use IRs that use dynamic mics such as the Shure SM57 or the E906 to hear more midrange and where the guitar should sit in a live mix. Mikko has some great IRs in the cab packs that use a combination of Dynamic mics (for more midrange and 'cut' in the mix) with ribbon mics (which add more "fullness" and "body")

Hmm I am having the opposite occur, mind you I have not tried the 800 in a live situation as I wrote that off as being too bright compared to the plexi's and they were getting lost so I'll give that a go.
The plexis were just blending in with the other guitarists tone but didn't have as much guts as his, I had more success with the mark2c+ with mids cranked all the way and treble backed way off, my current tone is definitely very honky/nasal compared to the stock 800 preset but still sounds too bright (once the band starts playing) and it's like it gets lost in the cymbals.

I'm definitely going to try all these suggestions, thanks so much.

 

[RoshRoslin]

Hmm I am having the opposite occur, mind you I have not tried the 800 in a live situation as I wrote that off as being too bright compared to the plexi's and they were getting lost so I'll give that a go.
The plexis were just blending in with the other guitarists tone but didn't have as much guts as his, I had more success with the mark2c+ with mids cranked all the way and treble backed way off, my current tone is definitely very honky/nasal compared to the stock 800 preset but still sounds too bright (once the band starts playing) and it's like it gets lost in the cymbals.

I'm definitely going to try all these suggestions, thanks so much.

For sure. I've owned real 800s (Still have a 2204), Mark Boogies (Have a IIC+ in the studio, bought and sold a Mark I and IV a long time ago) etc. and the Axe FX really does do both amps justice.

For Mark Series, in my opinion, the Bass/Mid/Treble knobs really don't EQ in the traditional way as most guitar amps. They really affect the feel and slightly shape the tone. Cranking the Bass knob on a Mark IV (Real or axe fx) just loosens or tightens up the low end. It doesn't really ADD any bass. Use the Graphic Eq to add the low end. Same with the mid and the treble knob. They just shape the tone slightly by either making the tone brittle (Treble knob) or adjusting the smoothness/Honkiness (Mid knob). Again, the graphic EQ is what really adds bass/mid/treble. Hence, cranking the mid knob to 10 isn't going to really add that much midrange, but rather, just adjust the honkiness/smoothness of the overall tone.

As for the JCM800. It's not my favorite amp in the world, but I was using it as an example of what to listen for when you're trying to get your guitar tone to "cut" live. Just listen for where your guitar sits when you're using the JCM800 amp block. Dial your ears for that. Then, switch to your favorite amp and cab IR and listen for that brash upper-mid thing and try to get your tone to do that. What sounds bright by itself, will sound perfect in the mix.

I personally use the Plexis, Bogner Shiva and the AC30s for my rock rhythm guitar tones, depending on the type i'm going for.

Edit: The Bogner shiva is dark by nature. I crank the mid and the treble to brighten it up and use the bright switch and switch to EL34 tubes. I just like the way the amp feels because it is a lot looser and squishier than the average plexi. And is more of a hybrid between a JCM800 and a plexi. I also, it doesn't clean up as well as the plexi, which is, again by choice because it's set to a high-gain sound that I clean up with my volume knob for a more AC/DC thing.

 

[rickgk]

For sure. I've owned real 800s (Still have a 2204), Mark Boogies (Have a IIC+ in the studio, bought and sold a Mark I and IV a long time ago) etc. and the Axe FX really does do both amps justice.

For Mark Series, in my opinion, the Bass/Mid/Treble knobs really don't EQ in the traditional way as most guitar amps. They really affect the feel and slightly shape the tone. Cranking the Bass knob on a Mark IV (Real or axe fx) just loosens or tightens up the low end. It doesn't really ADD any bass. Use the Graphic Eq to add the low end. Same with the mid and the treble knob. They just shape the tone slightly by either making the tone brittle (Treble knob) or adjusting the smoothness/Honkiness (Mid knob). Again, the graphic EQ is what really adds bass/mid/treble. Hence, cranking the mid knob to 10 isn't going to really add that much midrange, but rather, just adjust the honkiness/smoothness of the overall tone.

As for the JCM800. It's not my favorite amp in the world, but I was using it as an example of what to listen for when you're trying to get your guitar tone to "cut" live. Just listen for where your guitar sits when you're using the JCM800 amp block. Dial your ears for that. Then, switch to your favorite amp and cab IR and listen for that brash upper-mid thing and try to get your tone to do that. What sounds bright by itself, will sound perfect in the mix.

I personally use the Plexis, Bogner Shiva and the AC30s for my rock rhythm guitar tones, depending on the type i'm going for.

Edit: The Bogner shiva is dark by nature. I crank the mid and the treble to brighten it up and use the bright switch and switch to EL34 tubes. I just like the way the amp feels because it is a lot looser and squishier than the average plexi. And is more of a hybrid between a JCM800 and a plexi. I also, it doesn't clean up as well as the plexi, which is, again by choice because it's set to a high-gain sound that I clean up with my volume knob for a more AC/DC thing.

Yep I am running the mark amp with the bass turned all the way off otherwise it has woofiness that I can't stand.

This is great info, I'm excited to give all of this a try, I guess because I've been doing this a long time and never really had any issues with valve amps/guitar cabs cutting through in the past I didn't expect to have to overthink things too much and the things I'd normally do to remedy this with a valve amp aren't solving things for me.

Do you have different live and recording patches? and have you got any live patches you could share, I'd be interested to see other's live patches.

 

[jlynnb1]

i really liked the Friedman Smallbox for Marshall type tones

 

[bdrepko]

The fender models really punch through the mix. They work well for classic rock. Too bad the are not suited for heavier stuff.

 

[delaticoalsotano]

In my non professional opinion, i "solved" it doing just a quick test:

Try to set Mic to null in your cab Block and at low/medium volume, compare both amps (your pal's real one and fas' one). Compare without drummer, bass or keyboards, make necessary changes to amp block during test, you know. I've played mostly with 4x12s and the same "problem" you're asking is obviously greater. Well, setting IR´s mic to null boosts, in my opinión, mid/ low end a lot (despite of many othe technical changes surely do to the tone), making tone more like "from the amp". In my case, at first impression combined better with the other´s guitarrist amp.

Well (again), i said "problem" and "solved" this way because it is not a problem and i did not solved anything.

As we all know, tones from the axe in frfr contains "miced tones". For "intense" music genres, if you set it to null, you will need to use higher volume to ear yourself. So, you will be adding a lot of mid and low frequencies to band´s overall sound with lack of definition, worst onstage monitoring, etc... This reasons to not setting your cab block´s mic to null... aplies to your band´s pal too. That can be easily the cause you're not earing yourself properly, indeed, can cause your bassist can´t too, progressive making everyone set their volume higher (and the circle begins).

With miced tones you are dramatically nearer from the place of the guitars in the mix. Looks a bit thin in first impressions but for me, i learned that the reallity is that me or audience never ear the raw sound of the amp (in a concert, nor recording, nor working on new song at home...). Was a bit hard to learn but today i can´t be happier with my sound (ok, maybe ´till nex FW update XD).

Sorry for the answer´s length and my bad english.
Hope it helps.

 

[dpeterson]

fire the other guitar player

 

[Pllm]

fire the other guitar player

An comment on this with a "solution" that I never tried (so this may not be a solution As you have an Axe Fx, prepare a patch that use your 2 inputs, with 2 amps and 2 cabs, panned as you do usally and have the 2 guitars played through it. It may help identify where the problem is coming.

 

[dpeterson]

Some amps just cut more. I had a 16 space all boogie rack back in the 80's / 90's, quad pream, 50/50, lexicon, etc... a guy came over with an original slash signature (first one whenever that came out), and it sounded like I wasn't even playing, no amount of volume could get me over him. Learned a lot that night.

 

[barhrecords]

I think that's what I'll need to try, I switched over to the mark series models after the first gig as I can really push the mids on those models, but yes I think I need to cycle through cab options at volume with the band.

I use a 5 band passive GEQ after the cab block and boost the mids. This makes a great cutting tone.

But you originally said the problem was lack of low mids and girth? Pushing up the mids will make the bass and low mids relatively lower?

Try the 5 band passive and push up the middle and low mids. I would start with 3db low mids, 6db mids. Adjust the amp block level to avoid clipping.

If you can, create all your presets with the CLR on a stick in Free Field mode. When you switch to wedge / tilt, I think you will get better results.

 

[Speculum Speculorum]

Use a different IR.

What he said.

 

[Pinkycramps]

I'm just curious as to why you are using it as a wedge if it's the only source of guitar sound. That's really not the best configuration to get sound out to the audience. I have played with only my CLR's before, and when I do that I set them on their side on top of my rack case (10 space, so it's up a little bit) in FF mode or mount on a pole stand. In tilt mode, is it in front of you like a monitor? Behind you? How would anyone else hear it that way? I'd say you need to get the speaker a clear directional path to the listeners.
Just my 1.2 cents... (and of course, I haven't seen the setup, so I might be off here completely)

 

[joegold]

Well I don't run the axefx through FOH so I guess if I and the other band members struggle to hear then so would the crowd, bare in mind also the stage we are playing on is so small we are all cramped close together, so it may be that the sound disperses better off stage.

Didn't you also say that you're using the CLR as a wedge on the floor in front of you pointing at your head?
If you don't run the feed into the FOH then how do you expect your sound to cut for the audience to hear it too?

If you're not going FOH try turning the CLR towards the audience.
Best would be on a speaker pole behind you at head level pointing towards the audience.

If it has the tone you like to hear but isn't cutting, turn up louder.
If the tones get wonky when you're loud enough to cut, then tweak your tones for loud playing.
But it would be a better idea to get the Axe feed into the FOH.
Then the soundguy can control your mix.

Or am I missing something?

 

[JT2]

Post one of your favorite patches that you use in the band situation. That may help us in giving you some advice.

 

[rickgk]

Didn't you also say that you're using the CLR as a wedge on the floor in front of you pointing at your head?
If you don't run the feed into the FOH then how do you expect your sound to cut for the audience to hear it too?

If you're not going FOH try turning the CLR towards the audience.
Best would be on a speaker pole behind you at head level pointing towards the audience.

If it has the tone you like to hear but isn't cutting, turn up louder.
If the tones get wonky when you're loud enough to cut, then tweak your tones for loud playing.
But it would be a better idea to get the Axe feed into the FOH.
Then the soundguy can control your mix.

Or am I missing something?

These venues I am playing are really small, the stage is virtually just a drum riser so the rest of us are on the floor in front of the stage, the crowd is literally face to face with us and the dispersion range on the CLR is quite wide so this is not really a factor.
if we were playing bigger venues with a proper stage then yes I would need to run direct or run the clr on a pole.

I am not sure how it sounds out front at this stage, I am trying to sort out how it sounds for the band onstage first, I know I can always run direct to FOH if the crowd is not hearing things but that's not what I am trying to solve, the onstage sound is so that all the other instruments are clear and separated but my tone is getting lost, just turning up louder isn't helping either it just hurts our ears and doesn't seem to sit well.

 

[rickgk]

Post one of your favorite patches that you use in the band situation. That may help us in giving you some advice.

I'll post my main patches later, you'll see I have cut the lows and the highs drastically and boosted the mids greatly, they don't sound good on their own because of this.