Any downside to using GLOBAL EQ for higher GAIN setting?

[Lkdog]

Am experimenting using a line out from OUTPUT 2 into the RETURN input on the effects loop on my Mesa F-50 combo which bypasses the Mesa preamp.

Overall volume maxes out at pretty low sound levels (maybe 80-90 db). I am guessing the Mesa preamp gain structure is pretty hot compared to the AXE-FX preamp gain structure.
The MESA F-50 combo by itself gets incredibly loud. Can't go a lot beyond 9/10 o'clock. 50 watts (conservative) using 6L6 tubes. I can also swap those out to EL84's using Yellow Jackets which reduces the power down to 20+ watts or so.

Anyway- is there any downside to setting the GAIN on the GLOBAL EQ settings on the AXE-FX to a higher level (like 5.0) in order to start approaching the usual sound level output of the MESA combo?

Thanks for input. This is all pretty new to me.

 

[chapelizod]

Am experimenting using a line out from OUTPUT 2 into the RETURN input on the effects loop on my Mesa F-50 combo which bypasses the Mesa preamp.

Overall volume maxes out at pretty low sound levels (maybe 80-90 db). I am guessing the Mesa preamp gain structure is pretty hot compared to the AXE-FX preamp gain structure.
The MESA F-50 combo by itself gets incredibly loud. Can't go a lot beyond 9/10 o'clock. 50 watts (conservative) using 6L6 tubes. I can also swap those out to EL84's using Yellow Jackets which reduces the power down to 20+ watts or so.

Anyway- is there any downside to setting the GAIN on the GLOBAL EQ settings on the AXE-FX to a higher level (like 5.0) in order to start approaching the usual sound level output of the MESA combo?

Thanks for input. This is all pretty new to me.

The line output levels from the Axe are definitely not the problem. I had my axe running as a preamp into my mark iv and it was just as loud! The problem may be that the fx loop is parallel on the F 50. The loop can be modded to serial fairly simply form what I've read. If you're planning on keeping and using both, that's definitely what I would do. I assume you are cranking the fx loop mix on the amp to as high as it will go?

Anyway, that being said, there's no harm in maxing out the output signal from the axe as long as you keep it below the point where it clips. You'll find though that your clean sounds are going to be the limiting factor here, as the output signal from them is more dynamic. The only problem with using global EQ for gain boost is that it's global. If you want to run your patches through your computer or headphones or some other source, it might require adjusting. I typically create separate patches for use with amp vs. for direct. It works much better that way. Also, the output level changes quite a bit when you turn cab and poweramp sims on vs when you have them disabled for use as a preamp only. It will save you more headaches later on if you customize patches now rather than rely on global eq.

 

[Dpoirier]

Do you mean that with the Axe-FX output knob cranked all the way up, you don't have enough volume? If so, I would suggest trying to find out why, and see you can address the real issue. The Axe-FX at fully cranked output level puts out a very string signal, hot enough to drive an effects loop return circuit into clipping. I highly doubt that your intention to boost that very hot signal even more by cranking up the global EQ is going to serve you any better.

As Chapelizod stated, I would check the loop on your amp, and see if there's anything you can do at that end. As it is, before even boosting the global EQ, you may *already* be clipping that loop return.

Did you set your Axe-Fx *input* level properly? It needs to just "tickle the red" when you play hard...

Daniel

 

[Lkdog]

Thanks for the replies. I appreciate your time to provide some assistance.

To answer the comments:

1) Yes, the OUTPUT 2 Level is maxed out and I only get probably 85-90 or so db. Nothing like the usual wall shaking ear splitting sound decibel level the Mesa is capable of producing.
2) It is a parallel loop. I do have it pretty close to the highest level of Mix (maybe 80%). There is something unique about this effects loop. Per the help I got in a previous post below I removed the dummy cable in the SEND input (which I had used successfully with my POD XT when I was going straight into the amp section). This removed the hum/noise I was getting, but now the sound level I can get is lower.
So right now I just have the OUTPUT 2 line going into the RETURN of the MESA. The noise issues is gone (unless I have the MIX at full 100%), but getting the usual combo amp sound decibel level is now a problem.
3) Yes, I have the INPUT of the AXE-FX just flickering on the red on a few factory presets. It is about 2 o'clock per guitars with humbuckers per the manual. (Stupid question...the meters only light up on one channel-not both. Is that normal??)


I think I need to learn more about how this effects loop is designed. In the big MESA F-series thread over at Harmony Central there should be info about this.

Your comments about assessing how increasing the GAIN on the GLOBAL EQ impacts different patches is something I need to look into. When playing around with it yesterday there was a big variance between patches. Soem did seem to overload the amp in some weird way-especially on the low end.

Thanks. Will keep working on this. I if I can get a good usable sound out of this through the MESA effects loop then I would keep the MESA and not have to bother with a FR amp/cab solution for those few times I play out anywhere with other people.

 

[Lkdog]

OK, update for anyone interested.

I went back and hooked up the POD XT into the effects loop of the MESA which I had been using before with the POD XT output into the RETURN (Mix at 80-90%) and a dummy cable into the SEND.
No significant hum or noise to speak of other than minor. Fired up a few POD XT presets and easily reached stage volumes without getting to 12 o'clock on the POD XT Output dial. Loud as heck.
Sounded good, also.
I then pulled out the dummy cable from the SEND input and the signal level dropped immediately just like with the AXE-FX.

I switched back over to the AXE-FX and stuck the dummy cable into the SEND. The noise was then back again. But also I got stage level volume with the Output 2 of the AXE-FX only at 11/12 o'clock.
I had the GAIN in the Global EQ at unity or flat.

Apparently the MESA effects loop needs a cable in the SEND to have the amp work at full power. (Have no idea the technical reason for this).

The problem is that with the AXE-FX into the RETURN and a dummy cable into the SEND-I get the hum/noise RFI/EMI thing at more than a minor level.

I guess I will look more into the design of the effects loop and see if the mod to switch it to a serial effects loop applies here to fix the RMI/EFI noise problem and allow me to get stage volume.
Or maybe there is an RFI/EMI filter of some type to throw on the amp. Very sensitive circuit it seems.

Very odd.

 

[Dpoirier]

Level-wise, that's more like it. My Axe at 9 o'clock is loud enough for jamming with the band, and at 11 o'clock is loud enough to kill small children. That's going into an FBT Verve 12mA powered monitor at half-volume.

Now the hum thing, that's what you need to figure out...

Daniel

 

[Lkdog]

Level-wise, that's more like it. My Axe at 9 o'clock is loud enough for jamming with the band, and at 11 o'clock is loud enough to kill small children. That's going into an FBT Verve 12mA powered monitor at half-volume.

Now the hum thing, that's what you need to figure out...

Daniel

You are going to love this.
Went through a bunch of troubleshooting steps similar to when I have had ground loop hums in my stereo or home theatre setup.
Was disconnecting the Plasma TV, different home theatre audio cables, the Direct TV cables, the internet coax into the house, different lights in the circuit, etc.


Finally tried the old cheater plug trick on the power cord method. :lol:

Dead silent with the Effects Loop Mix level on the MESA all the way up to 100% and the dummy cable plugged into the SEND input.
The sound level starts to get quite loud now with the OUTPUT 2 level on the AXE-FX at only 10 0'clock. Could not really try it out too much as my family is sleeping upstairs.

Also found out from reading on the MESA F-series thread on Harmony Central that you have to have a dummy plug into the SEND input jack to actually shut off the MESA preamp and get a full signal bypassing the preamp to the amp in the RETURN. That explains the sound level loss issue when there is no dummy plug.

Live and Learn.

Thanks for the help.