Any anti modelers have religious conversion?

GitGuy513

GitGuy513

Fractal Fanatic
First I would like to say that I’m absolutely being sincere and not trying to start an “us vs. them“ argument.

Before going further, I have never played any Fractal gear, but have been following their progress since I first saw Dweezil Zappa live many years ago. so keeping that in mind I have playing experience with other modelers especially the “line 7-1“ stuff that started it all if you get my drift. I took the Bean back to the store within a day. I stopped trying before Kemper and some of the other newer market entries. I also have experience with various computer Plugin stuff. I have always been an amp guy and found all modelers to always be lacking in feel and uninspiring after the initial ear candy wore off.

My question is to any players out there who had similar feelings and have been converted by the FM3. Or at least find Fractal to finally hit the mark. Mainly, when your playing you feel your actually connected in real time to the sound and have proper dynamic response. I‘ve come to the conclusion that well written algorithms and then the proper amount of processing power is the trick. I own a Eventide H9 and while that isn’t an amp modeler it definitely made me realize that modeling can be done right. I guess I just don’t want to be disappointed once again. Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
 
GitGuy513 said:
First I would like to say that I’m absolutely being sincere and not trying to start an “us vs. them“ argument.

Before going further, I have never played any Fractal gear, but have been following their progress since I first saw Dweezil Zappa live many years ago. so keeping that in mind I have playing experience with other modelers especially the “line 7-1“ stuff that started it all if you get my drift. I took the Bean back to the store within a day. I stopped trying before Kemper and some of the other newer market entries. I also have experience with various computer Plugin stuff. I have always been an amp guy and found all modelers to always be lacking in feel and uninspiring after the initial ear candy wore off.

My question is to any players out there who had similar feelings and have been converted by the FM3. Or at least find Fractal to finally hit the mark. Mainly, when your playing you feel your actually connected in real time to the sound and have proper dynamic response. I‘ve come to the conclusion that well written algorithms and then the proper amount of processing power is the trick. I own a Eventide H9 and while that isn’t an amp modeler it definitely made me realize that modeling can be done right. I guess I just don’t want to be disappointed once again. Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
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Tons of videos and folks praising Fractal. You will just have to hear and "feel" it in person. The Fractal products have always "felt" like real amps and they are constantly improving. There is a return period....so take a shot!
 
Me, I've pretty much always had tube amps - my second ever amp was a Fender Blonde Bassman, my main gigging experience - Full Marshall Jubilee stack

As I got older/more a home player - I tried every Line 6 product, literally I've owned them all.

None lasted for long, they can sound good but to me they were unintuitive - I had to set the controls where I wouldn't in the real world, put compressors in 'strange' places etc.

Last 'real' rig was a massive Gigrig powered pedalboard with a Carr amp, the pedalboard was custom made and so heavy I could barely carry it.

Got a AX8 on a whim to try (and likely return), sold the pedals and amp within a month. It made sense, the knobs were in the 'real' position, I got the same sound every day, at every volume etc.etc.

I went AX8 to Axe III and then back down to the FM3 which is perfect for me (with an external reverb) and stops me making 'ultimate patches' the whole time! (two amps, every delay and mod option you never need etc)
 
I have been on and off on modelers for ages. Back in the day the Yamaha DG80 I had was way better than what Line6 was peddling at the time and the next thing I felt was an improvement was the blue Vox Valvetronix. After that the Axe-Fx Standard/Ultra were the first significant improvement for digital modeling and it's just gotten better from there. At the moment all the top tier modelers are really good, including Line6 Helix.

What you hook the Fractal into will matter too. Studio monitors or PA speakers with cab sims will sound distinctly different from running into a poweramp and guitar cab. Most people doing "modeler vs my favorite tube amp" comparisons don't compare them the right way, namely using a similar output system at the same volume level as measured by a decibel meter. Otherwise you are comparing apples and oranges.

If you just have a couple of favorite amps and don't like tweaking then you will probably hate the Fractal stuff as there's a lot of screens and lot of menus. That comes with a ton of versatility but also a lot to learn. If you don't need that kind of versatility then it can be just something that is complication you don't need. I actually sold my Fractal gear for a few years because I was tired of the clunky user interface of the Axe-Fx 2. I never had complaints about its sound or feel though. I now have a FM3 and it's much better in the UI department but still not what I would consider great. Using the computer editor saves a lot of frustration still.

I own a couple of tube amps and while IMO the modelers are excellent, there's still value in the simplicity of plugging in, turning a couple of knobs and having an excellent sound with no other compromises than size, weight and versatility. I can get 90% of the sounds I like from my Bogner alone and that makes me consider if I need a modeler in the first place.

But at the same time it's hard to give up the convenience of one box that does everything and more. I use a Line6 Helix Floor in 4 cable method with my tube amps for fx, switching and routing for a kind of a "best of all worlds" setup - versatility of digital and ease of use of a tube amp for the amp sound. It works nicely but it's a large rig I would not want to move around regularly.
 
I owned the original pod, the pod X3 and then the Eleven Rack. Eleven was really good, way better than the pods... Still wasn't quite there compared to my marshall stack and marshall 50w tube combo, but good enough for home use.
Then i got the Axe FX II which led me to eventually sell my amps. I now have the FM3 and I have no intention returning back to tube amps. Fractals gear is good enough for me, never felt i need anything else, but then again, I'm not extremely picky with the small details difference noone probably will hear anyway. I just want a good tone and play away and the FM3 gives me just that...
 
Thanks everyone. That gave me some good information. I have watched all the YT vids, but as someone said they are not always apple to apple comparisons or else from the long converted. The return aspect is something to consider, but I’m old school and use to being sure I want and thoroughly researched what I buy and don’t like returning something for reasons other than damaged. That may be the way to go because I don’t know anyone that owns any and no dealers in the US.

The one thing I forgot to mention is I’m 56 and have been suffering from a severe bum knee and carrying heavy amps around is no longer a reasonable option. Although at home I was probably going to use direct with phones or through my QSC K12.2’s. Or try a 4 cable method through one of my tube amps.

The main thing that really got me juiced was watching Larry Mitchel vids using a FM3 along with an Eventide H9 in the loop. The best setup I’ve come across.

As far as being overly technical is not really an issue. I’ve been messing with MFX, synths, etc. for years.

Finally, the other thing that was super a disappointment was the price increase in terms of getting another piece of gear pass the wife. Things that are under a $1000 are easier to convince. I know it’s only a 100 bucks, but $999 looks so much better to the wife. I suppose any married person will understand.😉 Thanks again!
 
Me. It started with me replacing a giant pedalboard with a Line 6 HX Effects because I absolutely hate tapdancing, and I need to be able to switch between very different sounds instantly. From there, I tried out a Helix. Once I got over the learning curve and had a better understanding of the concept of modelling, I was able to get it sounding great in the band mix. Did it sound and feel AS good as my tube amp when I was playing by myself? No. But it sounded as good as soon as the full band was playing. It was way easier to bring to a gig. All my sounds were preset, so I didn't have to worry about accident changing knob settings and dialing in a new tone at the venue. I could bring it home and practice or work on preset updates.

As things changed with Covid, I went from mostly playing live and recording a bit here and there, to doing lots of studio work and, well, not playing live. Since then I've doubled down on modeling, got a Kemper Stage, and now the FM3. I don't forsee getting another traditional tube amp rig unless I rejoin a band and we're rehearsing regularly in a rehearsal space.
 
joshriggsFM3 said:
Me. It started with me replacing a giant pedalboard with a Line 6 HX Effects because I absolutely hate tapdancing, and I need to be able to switch between very different sounds instantly. From there, I tried out a Helix. Once I got over the learning curve and had a better understanding of the concept of modelling, I was able to get it sounding great in the band mix. Did it sound and feel AS good as my tube amp when I was playing by myself? No. But it sounded as good as soon as the full band was playing. It was way easier to bring to a gig. All my sounds were preset, so I didn't have to worry about accident changing knob settings and dialing in a new tone at the venue. I could bring it home and practice or work on preset updates.

As things changed with Covid, I went from mostly playing live and recording a bit here and there, to doing lots of studio work and, well, not playing live. Since then I've doubled down on modeling, got a Kemper Stage, and now the FM3. I don't forsee getting another traditional tube amp rig unless I rejoin a band and we're rehearsing regularly in a rehearsal space.
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Does seems to be the way to go these days. The thing I most disliked from modelers was that feeling like I was not connected to the sound I was trying to make. Probably latency despite how small. That and the canned sound. I don’t hear that from the FM3.
 
GitGuy513 said:
I own a Eventide H9 and while that isn’t an amp modeler it definitely made me realize that modeling can be done right.
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The effects of the Eventide H9 have considerable lower quality than the Axe-FX III. I bought one for fun, and I sold it very fast. See my thread here: https://forum.fractalaudio.com/thre...d-beyond-chapter-1-crystals-algorithm.157686/

And the quality of the distortions and modeling of the H9 is substandard compared with most of the well known modelers available today.
 
I started playing serious gigs a little over 20 years ago, and had been an absolute tube amp purist, bought tons of vintage and boutique amps over the years.

I got the AX8 when that came out, and immediately preferred that to an amp on stage...with the FM3, I prefer it to any tube amp in every situation in the studio or gigging.

it just feels right!
 
I would highly recommend starting out by using a monitor through a guitar speaker. That's 90% of the battle right there. You can definitely adjust to a direct sound using full range monitors (like studio monitors, headphones, PA speakers, etc) but it's an adjustment. If you have a power amp and cab, or a tube amp with an effects loop, start there and you'll probably have a blast.
 
GitGuy513 said:
Does seems to be the way to go these days. The thing I most disliked from modelers was that feeling like I was not connected to the sound I was trying to make. Probably latency despite how small. That and the canned sound. I don’t hear that from the FM3.
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That's what I mean about getting a better understanding of modeling as a concept. It IS a canned sound - it's the sound of a recorded amp and cab. Yes, you can disable cab modeling and run it into a real guitar cab, or get a good FRFR and adjust the EQ, but modelling will always be a "canned sound." Adjusting your ears and expectations around that are key to being happy with a modeler.
 
Well, it's been a long way since the bean and that old modeling generation... giant steps every now and then, so the worst / cheapest modeler today sounds way better and "more real" than whatever the flagship was at the time.
Said that, out of all the more recent modelers I played, the fas were (and still are) the only ones where I can tell I'm not playing a real rig, but I don't miss a thing, and actually by mimic'ing some of my old sounds from the old 14U rack with 2 shelves of pedals and dual amp setup, in the end for about 80% of those sounds I prefer the af version vs the original presets I based them from.
And this was before Cygnus, which is probably the biggest step in amp modeling ever.
 
When I was 13 I started playing and had a Rockman. I finally got an amp at age 18 and it was a digital Peavey. I then got the opportunity to play with a band and the other guitarist had a Marshall JCM 900. He schooled me and I became a tube amp purist.
Around that time, Digitech, Line 6 and Zoom were all in their modeling infancy and had a horrible name. I tried a Behringer V-amp, which was easy to transport but didn't sound great. I really wanted the simplicity of digital, but it wasn't there, so I went through a few Boogies (Nomad 55, Stilleto Ace, Mark 5:25).
I was really happy with the Mesa Mark 5:25, I also had a huge 14-15 pedal pedalboard to get almost any sound I desired. It was a pain to lug around, but I wanted pure analog tone. I heard about Fractal and how people said it was pretty much up to tube technology. I didn't pay a ton of attention cause I couldn't afford it.
Then I ended up needing money fast thanks to an ex and a lawyer, so I sold my Mark 5:25, a guitar and my pedals. Thankfully, I ended up with around $1000 after the expenses, so I grabbed an AX8 since it was the quickest way to come close to the rig I used to have. I couldn't do an A/B, but I was floored with the tone/responsiveness/touch sensitivity (all the things modeling couldn't accomplish in my day). I heard that the FM3 was on the way, so I ended up selling the AX8 and getting the FM3.
Wow - this is even better than the AX8 - someday maybe I'll get the III (or whatever the latest flagship is when I have the funds), but for now, this is so portable, and toneful, I'll never look back.
Another thing that helped me decide is the fact that anywhere I played, my tube amp was mic'ed and put through the FOH/monitors. Basically the same end game as the Fractal, so why in the hell was I so bent on pure tube/analog?
 
I was in the tubes only camp up until about two years ago. I had owned a few bits of Line6 gear (POD HD400 and Pocket POD), but those were only used for practice and I could never really get them to sound good enough to make me want to play. I tried making my own presets from scratch as well as downloading several off of their online preset exchange. I was never satisfied with the results.

Fast forward a few years and I was in the market for a new delay unit. I wanted to get something that sounded really good and that lead me to purchasing the FX8. I knew that Fractal's reputation for effects was universally positive and I thought that it might be able to replace a few other effects that I was using as well. The FX8 impressed me straight away. All of the effect types sounded very good, the buffer was more transparent than the VHT Valvulator that I had been using, the build quality was excellent, and the deep editing capabilities were astounding. It replaced my entire pedalboard.

I started watching Leon Todd's videos on the AX8 and Axe-FX III because many of the tips for dialing in effects translated directly to the FX8. I liked what I was hearing from his amp modeling tones and that got me to eventually purchase the Axe-FX III. The first five minutes with factory preset 1 on the Axe-FX III left me thoroughly impressed. The tone had rich harmonic detail and it cleaned up by playing with a light touch or adjusting the volume knob on my guitar (something that the Line6 units were atrocious at). I knew that this box was in a different class than the modeling units I had tried before.

I still own my tube gear (haven't sold anything) but I rarely use any of it because the Axe-FX III is an inspiring thing to play. I can get the tones I like at volumes that don't make my ears ring, there's very little noise (hum, crackles, pops when switching), and it just sounds incredible. It is easily the best gear purchase I have ever made.

If you've got the cash then get one now before they go out of stock again due to supply chain shortages.
 
Piing said:
The effects of the Eventide H9 have considerable lower quality than the Axe-FX III. I bought one for fun, and I sold it very fast. See my thread here

And the quality of the distortions and modeling of the H9 is substandard compared with most of the well known modelers available today.
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The H9 is not an amp modeler or cab sim. Big difference. I use it for the delays, reverbs and pitch effects. The FM3 does run out of processing at some point depending on what‘s being used.

Edit: I should make clear I already own an H9 and the FX’s are algorithm based models like Fractal. The Distortion FX’s were add ons in updates. Distortions are not what Eventide was ever about. Having said that, there are some cool things that can be done, but it is definitely not it’s strong point.
 
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Chapter I - Modelers sucks, I need a tube amp​

I had experience with modelers years ago (Line 6 POD; Eleven Rack; some plugins). Then I realized I didn't have the tone I was looking for and I come back to Mesa/Boogie + Pedals, and I spend a lot of money and time searching for the right combination (so...for people who think that amp+pedals are easier to use).

Chapter II - I need something hybrid for recording​

I added a Torpedo Live to my setup for home recording, and switching cabs gave me another perspective. I didn't use the real cab anymore.

Chapter III - I need more FX​

I added a Helix Stomp for FX only, but I began using the Helix more than the amp. Easier to dial good tones, and faster than waiting for the tubes to warm up and switching on/off everything. I sold all of my pedals (except one I'll keep forever).

Chapter IV - Who needs an amp?​

To my ears, Helix is good but is not so far in tone as a plugin. I see why so many people have one, is cheap, easy to find in stores, flexible enough, but it was not for me. I decided to "upgrade" with a Kemper. I sold all of my amps (after profiling them all).

Chapter V - I'm 90% there, but I can't find my tone​

Profiling is a great approach, but even if there are thousands of profiles available, and even if you can turn some knobs to get close to your tone if some frequencies or some characteristics have not been profiled be sure you can't add them after. So after searching and spending money on profiles, in the end they began to sound all the same. Plus, I wasn't 100% excited with Kemper effects. With the last updates, they are much better, but not at the same level I can reach with UAD Plugins, or Helix Stomp (or Native).

Chapter VI - I hate Fractal​

Why a waiting list? Why so many endorsers? Why so many hardware updates in the time Kemper released just 2 variations on the same product? I hate Fractal, I will never buy a Fractal product, it's just marketing, and "from the demo on YouTube it's not that different from the other modelers" (in a blind test...After EQ....I can do the same....etc).
Then, one day, frustrated by the limitation of the profiler, I jumped on the waiting list for the FM3. I barely remembered that when, after few months, I received an email where G66 wrote that I reached the top of the list and I could place the order.

Chapter VII - Right here. Right now​

I placed the order, in the worst scenario I would have sold the FM3 easily. When it arrived I wasn't much impressed by the majority of the presets, but after switching the factory presets with the ones fine-tuned by @Marco Fanton (https://www.g66.eu/it/mf-presets-fm3) I completely changed my mind. Reading the manual has been a great help as well, learning how to use each block, trying an amp, cabs (without the need to buy profiles), effects....wow. I see what I've been missing until now, FM3 is:
  • Super flexible, there are no routing options, MIDI assignment, Footswitch operation I need that I can't do with it.
  • Great tone, so many amp on one unit, no need to buy extra profiles, try many snapshots of someone else taste and then realize you don't like any.
  • Huge amount of cab (IRs), I already collected some in those years, but...I'm not even trying them for the moment. I have all I need already available.
  • Incredible effects, after one month I didn't even try them all, but the few I use the most are ad top level
  • Portable, every time I had to play with some friends musicians I always was discouraged by carrying the guitar, the Kemper rack, the pedalboard, expression pedal, some other pedal, cables.... now everything I need fits on a Pedaltrain Classic 2. So, one guitar and one bag. Perfect.
 
joshriggsFM3 said:
That's what I mean about getting a better understanding of modeling as a concept. It IS a canned sound - it's the sound of a recorded amp and cab. Yes, you can disable cab modeling and run it into a real guitar cab, or get a good FRFR and adjust the EQ, but modelling will always be a "canned sound." Adjusting your ears and expectations around that are key to being happy with a modeler.
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Not sure if you’re familiar with QSC K2 series, but they have essentially an FRFR mode.
 
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