Any advice for a 24y/o Sonar Tech in Navy interested in career in Music Field?

K

Kluke96

New Member
Yo what's up everybody! Any advice for someone that wants to pursue a music technology degree (I'm thinking of applying to NYU)?

I am a sonar tech in the navy, I'm gonna get out soon and go to school.

Probably take a little break for myself, and work on my skills as a musician and learn music theory.

I know I want to either get into Audio Engineering (Live sound or recording sounds cool but idk anything yet)

I'm also kind of interested in making the programs, electronics, or instruments that help producers/musicians.

Tbh my producing skills are ass and I'm working on that but as far as a career i'd love to work any job in the music field.

Thanks guys!
 
Bummer post incoming:

It's a fast way to barely make any money.

The formal education doesn't seem to do much besides cause debt, from what these kinds of threads show. If you want to be an audio engineer, now is the golden era of learning at home. Interning at a studio is always valuable, and working at multiple studios will provide different views.

Music is not a field to go into if you need to support a family or want to make "good" (this varies for people) money. Turning a passion into a for-profit project usually sucks all the life out of it.

This isnt to say dont do it, just be fully aware of the risk involved in trying to support yourself in the arts. I would look for a day job you can stand and immerse yourself in learning engineering or production or development in your free time. If you become good at it, people will seek you out. Also keep in mind getting good at any field takes years of hard work - dont expect to charge $500/song any time soon ;).

And now for actual engineers and producers to chime in.
 
As someone who graduated in 1993 top of my class in a top 3 school in the US for Audio Recording, my advice is this recording road needs a lot of luck, tireless networking, and miserly management of debt to break even without a side gig... And that was before the market for pro recording cratered with people charging $15 per hour or $25 per song to record on Craigslist along with a proliferation of serious home recording gear at budget prices, as well as the cratering of music label spend on big production budgets.

If you have the math skills, get your electrical or electronics engineering degree or a hardcore computer programming degree with a concentration in dsp, work hard to be at the top of your class, and work at a musical instrument electronics company when they have an opening. If it doesn't work out at such a company, you can still make a good living with your degree at many of types of product firms and not struggle to escape a race to the bottom.

Set yourself up for success and you can do the engineering/production gig as a side gig where you don't have to do sh!t recording jobs to keep food in your belly and a roof over your head.

The commercial studio world was a stress level akin to air traffic controllers according to one study in the early 90s. Typical burn out in the field post school graduation was 9 months. This is not something Full Sail, NYU, or any of the big schools would ever tell you as far as the stats, which I am sure are even worse if anyone did a similar study today.

One dear mentor and friend with serious album credits ended up being forced to close his basement studio due to his neighborhood pressuring the town to close him due to clients coming and going at different hours of the night. He ended up liquidating his studio due to legal battles, becoming a national park ranger for 10 years to regain his sanity and perspective. He now does graphic design for a day gig and recording on the side so it wasn't a struggle to survive and so he could achieve a work life balance where he could work on just the projects he wanted to.

Do it on your own terms not on someone else's terms.
 
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dr bonkers said:
As someone who graduated in 1993 top of my class in a top 3 school in the US for Audio Recording, my advice is this recording road needs a lot of luck, tireless networking, and miserly management of debt to break even without a side gig... And that was before the market for pro recording cratered with people charging $15 per hour or $25 per song to record on Craigslist along with a proliferation of serious home recording gear at budget prices, as well as the cratering of music label spend on big production budgets.

If you have the math skills, get your electrical or electronics engineering degree or a hardcore computer programming degree with a concentration in dsp, work hard to be at the top of your class, and work at a musical instrument electronics company when they have an opening. If it doesn't work out at such a company, you can still make a good living with your degree at many of types of product firms and not struggle to escape a race to the bottom.

Set yourself up for success and you can do the engineering/production gig as a side gig where you don't have to do sh!t recording jobs to keep food in your belly and a roof over your head.

The commercial studio world was a stress level akin to air traffic controllers according to one study in the early 90s. Typical burn out in the field post school graduation was 9 months. This is not something Full Sail, NYU, or any of the big schools would ever tell you as far as the stats, which I am sure are even worse if anyone did a similar study today.

One dear mentor and friend with serious album credits ended up being forced to close his basement studio due to his neighborhood pressuring the town to close him due to clients coming and going at different hours of the night. He ended up liquidating his studio due to legal battles, becoming a national park ranger for 10 years to regain his sanity and perspective. He now does graphic design for a day gig and recording on the side so it wasn't a struggle to survive and so he could achieve a work life balance where he could work on just the projects he wanted to.

Do it on your own terms not on someone else's terms.
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Very, very good advise Dr Bonkers! +1, I always had a full time job/career even when my teaching and gigging was at its height, later on in life I got into Info Systems (IS) and its been a great steady income stream ever since.
 
You should watch Glenn Fricker on youtube if you want to become a sound engineer in a studio. The shit you will get from musicians who want you to record them for free, cause they will make it big and then you get famous too! Or having unprepared musicians come into your studio and waste your time, and theirs too. As for being a live engineer, pro bands will be a joy to work with, but amateurs, man, they will make you want to commit murder. Especially bass players. And god help you if a band brings their own sound guy along, who absolutely has to do and set up things their own way. The only time I ever walked away in order to stop myself from committing murder. And while I may come across as an obnoxious guy on the forums (for which I hereby apologize) I'm usually very quiet and calm in real life.

When people complain about sound engineers being obnoxious a-holes I always say, who do you think made them this way? ;) 🤔
 
I'm friends with three guys who were pro sound engineers for live acts.

One is the Chief Engineer for all the Harrah's properties in Las Vegas. According to him, he's one of the last of a dying breed. He (and many other union engineers) used to mix live acts every night and make good money doing it. Then automation and click tracks became a thing, and nowadays they hire pros to program the show (lights, sound, pyrotechnics, hydraulics) once, and then hire a $10 per hour monkey to hit the On switch to start the show each night.

Another toured for years with several different big name country acts. With at least one of those acts, he was on retainer and got paid even when he wasn't touring. He gave it up about 12 years ago because all the booze and blow was going to kill him. He's now a corporate sales rep for Dell making more money than he ever did on the road.

The third was the FOH engineer for a major rock act. He toured the world for years, until an old motorcycle injury to his foot got bad and he needed hospitalization. He came close to losing his foot because he kept putting off medical treatment due to the tour schedule. He turned down the 2019 European tour with this act and stayed home to get his foot fixed. He had no insurance, no income, and had to sell gear and household items just to put a roof over his head. He's now doing handyman work just to make ends meet.

Dr. Bonkers offers good advice.
 
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Muad'zin said:
Or having unprepared musicians come into your studio and waste your time, and theirs too.
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If you charge by the hour then they're only wasting their time - you're getting paid either way ;)

My band started working with students at a fairly local college for Audio Engineering (and other related arts) maybe 20 years ago and still do on occasion:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_Expression_College

We often received high praise from the instructors there (most are current/former industry pros) for preparedness, professionalism, studio knowledge, etc... They definitely don't expect that stuff based on their experience :)

During that time we hooked up with a guy who is a great engineer and have been working with him for about 10 years.

Finding consistent work has been a challenge for him.

I have a friend that went to Berklee College of Music and has been a pro in the industry for 25 years or so. He used to be part of producer Ron Fair's crew... But got downsized. Last few years he does audio production for TV (ESPN, I think).
 
unix-guy said:
If you charge by the hour then they're only wasting their time - you're getting paid either way ;)
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You should ALWAYS charge by the hour when dealing with people who hire you to do a job. I fully agree. That still won't make the job of recording a bunch of unprepared amateurs any easier and less frustrating though. As Glenn Fricker never tires of saying. Working with people who don't know what they are doing and are not prepared is always a major drag, even if you do get paid by the hour. And you can bet your ass that if the recording goes bad and the end result is not to their liking they will badmouth you to everyone.

My band started working with students at a fairly local college for Audio Engineering (and other related arts) maybe 20 years ago and still do on occasion:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_Expression_College

We often received high praise from the instructors there (most are current/former industry pros) for preparedness, professionalism, studio knowledge, etc... They definitely don't expect that stuff based on their experience :)
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I did that once with my last band. Arrive prepared, on time, don't get in the way when not needed and know what you want to accomplish with your recording. You're not Pink Floyd, able to camp in a studio for a year, endlessly experimenting and writing music. If you can, great, but it will cost you. For most you get in, shit prepared, follow the instructions, record and then leave again. And know what you want out of your recording so the engineer knows how to mix.
 
Hi @Kluke96

With the wisdom of age, I can suggest you look at a related field instead. Your knowledge of the physics of sound suggest perhaps getting into Acoustics may be a better bet - That will see you creating spaces for music minded people with the $$$ and you may actually be able to make a living. Musicians that make a good living are rare. Particularly viewed over the long term.
I'd be a much richer man without music - but I love it too much :)

Good luck
Pauly

Kluke96 said:
Yo what's up everybody! Any advice for someone that wants to pursue a music technology degree (I'm thinking of applying to NYU)?

I am a sonar tech in the navy, I'm gonna get out soon and go to school.

Probably take a little break for myself, and work on my skills as a musician and learn music theory.

I know I want to either get into Audio Engineering (Live sound or recording sounds cool but idk anything yet)

I'm also kind of interested in making the programs, electronics, or instruments that help producers/musicians.

Tbh my producing skills are ass and I'm working on that but as far as a career i'd love to work any job in the music field.

Thanks guys!
Click to expand...
 
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dr bonkers said:
As someone who graduated in 1993 top of my class in a top 3 school in the US for Audio Recording, my advice is this recording road needs a lot of luck, tireless networking, and miserly management of debt to break even without a side gig... And that was before the market for pro recording cratered with people charging $15 per hour or $25 per song to record on Craigslist along with a proliferation of serious home recording gear at budget prices, as well as the cratering of music label spend on big production budgets.

If you have the math skills, get your electrical or electronics engineering degree or a hardcore computer programming degree with a concentration in dsp, work hard to be at the top of your class, and work at a musical instrument electronics company when they have an opening. If it doesn't work out at such a company, you can still make a good living with your degree at many of types of product firms and not struggle to escape a race to the bottom.

Set yourself up for success and you can do the engineering/production gig as a side gig where you don't have to do sh!t recording jobs to keep food in your belly and a roof over your head.

The commercial studio world was a stress level akin to air traffic controllers according to one study in the early 90s. Typical burn out in the field post school graduation was 9 months. This is not something Full Sail, NYU, or any of the big schools would ever tell you as far as the stats, which I am sure are even worse if anyone did a similar study today.

One dear mentor and friend with serious album credits ended up being forced to close his basement studio due to his neighborhood pressuring the town to close him due to clients coming and going at different hours of the night. He ended up liquidating his studio due to legal battles, becoming a national park ranger for 10 years to regain his sanity and perspective. He now does graphic design for a day gig and recording on the side so it wasn't a struggle to survive and so he could achieve a work life balance where he could work on just the projects he wanted to.

Do it on your own terms not on someone else's terms.
Click to expand...
Kinda glad I didn't go to IAR or whatever it was in NYC in the mid-90s after reading this....
 
My high school marching band had some of the best musicians in the state, maybe country... a lot of the people went on to seriously successful careers in all types of music...

TWO of the MOST SUCCESSFUL- had music careers... in the navy and in the airforce.
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When it comes to Universities/Colleges...
I know a lot of people that went to for profit unaccredited schools (full sail/recording conservatory)
I know a few people that went to traditional universities
And I know one that studied recording at Berklee...

By FAR the most successful people I've seen persuing careers in recording and music business came out of Berklee- I wouldn't even bother with another traditional university.
---
Last, I don't see a field with less certainty, less opportunity, and less money than a career in professional music.

20 years ago it costs at a min $30,000-100k to record a commercially releasable album...
Most successful album in the last few years was recorded with a $700 set of monitors, a $2000 interface and a $200 microphone and $150 set of headphones.

Anyone can do their own thing and have more than the beatles ever had in their bedrooms for $500.

Like said above- it's a race to the bottom... why pay $250 to mix and master a song when dozens are fighting for $10-25.

Live sound recording? how much in the last 6 months has anyone in live sound made? zero dollars combined?

If you've ever seen NAMM it's a million square feet of people making programs, electronics and instruments for musicians- and very few if any have the kind of success that a company like Fractal has.

Do music because you love it- but as far as a career- there are house hold names, famous, successful musicians that haven't made a dime this year- and don't know when another dime will come into them. Even without covid it was dire straits for new careers in music.... to try to monotize it into a stable career and future- I wouldn't want to wish that on my worst enemy today.

I do have to say- one job in music is worth- guitar building- i see plenty of people wanting to get into that and that's an awful business to be in- but recording/music technology is probably next.
 
Jeries said:
My high school marching band had some of the best musicians in the state, maybe country... a lot of the people went on to seriously successful careers in all types of music...

TWO of the MOST SUCCESSFUL- had music careers... in the navy and in the airforce.
---
When it comes to Universities/Colleges...
I know a lot of people that went to for profit unaccredited schools (full sail/recording conservatory)
I know a few people that went to traditional universities
And I know one that studied recording at Berklee...

By FAR the most successful people I've seen persuing careers in recording and music business came out of Berklee- I wouldn't even bother with another traditional university.
---
Last, I don't see a field with less certainty, less opportunity, and less money than a career in professional music.

20 years ago it costs at a min $30,000-100k to record a commercially releasable album...
Most successful album in the last few years was recorded with a $700 set of monitors, a $2000 interface and a $200 microphone and $150 set of headphones.

Anyone can do their own thing and have more than the beatles ever had in their bedrooms for $500.

Like said above- it's a race to the bottom... why pay $250 to mix and master a song when dozens are fighting for $10-25.

Live sound recording? how much in the last 6 months has anyone in live sound made? zero dollars combined?

If you've ever seen NAMM it's a million square feet of people making programs, electronics and instruments for musicians- and very few if any have the kind of success that a company like Fractal has.

Do music because you love it- but as far as a career- there are house hold names, famous, successful musicians that haven't made a dime this year- and don't know when another dime will come into them. Even without covid it was dire straits for new careers in music.... to try to monotize it into a stable career and future- I wouldn't want to wish that on my worst enemy today.

I do have to say- one job in music is worth- guitar building- i see plenty of people wanting to get into that and that's an awful business to be in- but recording/music technology is probably next.
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I cant help myself here, I have been in several band over the years with Berklee grads, these individuals were very mean and rude people, apparently this school is exceptionally suited for breading prude rude individuals IMHO, in addition most of them lacked creativity unless there was a chart in front of them... Feel free to trash me as you pleasz...
 
GlennO said:
I suspect Glenn Fricker finds everything in life to be annoying.
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The guy himself is annoying and full of BS! Can't stand his vids.

I was released from the army early 90's and had the same dream of getting seriously into the industry so I started to work in a PA company (one of the 3 biggest in my country) doing live shoes, t.v broadcast and some recordings, I was learning a lot and having a ton of fun not to mentioned the team around me and the whole vibe which was very cool.
During summer / spring I earned a lot, very nice $$$ but winter has financially crashed me hard. I'm talking about zero income sometimes!
After 2 years in the business (I was already working as a FOH engineer etc.) I decided its not going to work for long and went to the university for a degree and I'm very thankful for that action as it made me what I am today and allows me to live as I wanted (give or take) + keep my music as a semi pro hobby (bands, gigs, etc.).
I'm not sorry I switched.

BUT…….

On the other hand, a friend of mine which we worked together back than decided to stay no matter what in the business, he was facing lack of income many times but didn’t give up, he become on of the top known FOH engineer in my country and was involved in any mega production and eventually moved to USA where today he is the FOW engineer in a known production, a world class touring band / performer (most of the people here know) + involved in a very known plugin company and he actually live the dream!

What's the bottom line?
You can be whatever you want if you are willing to sacrifice a lot specifically in the music industry.
I found this sacrifice to be way too much.
 
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DaveO said:
I cant help myself here, I have been in several band over the years with Berklee grads, these individuals were very mean and rude people, apparently this school is exceptionally suited for breading prude rude individuals IMHO, in addition most of them lacked creativity unless there was a chart in front of them... Feel free to trash me as you pleasz...
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Not wrong and today anyone that can pay the tuition gets in- however I was referring to specifically the Recording program, not any other instruments/programs.

I just googled the acceptance rate...

Julliard School- 7.6%
Harvard- 4.7%
Berklee 47.6%

Private, prestigious music school- half the people get in?

I've never seen such a high acceptance rate since Arizona State

But my point was- I've seen people who study recording there go on to really good things, unlike all the other public university or 'trade school' programs
 
"Find a job you enjoy doing and you'll never have to work a day in your life"- Mark Twain. I had to take a disability retirement from a "good job" and now make 1/2 of what I did before but currently doing what I enjoy. Lots of things I can't do physically but I've never been happier. Money isn't everything, a necessity yes, but not the end all of defining success.

Do your due diligence and make sure you're able to make ends meet with what entry level position you find most available. Pay your dues, don't expect a fast rise to your ideal job. Make friends in the industry and keep in touch with them. Don't be a tool; most successful people are busy because they are nice and respectful, building relationships, creating a group of friends, not just a list of people they contact when they need something.

Become proficient in an area before taking gigs. It's almost impossible to overcome a bad reputation in any line of work but the music industry can be brutal. When you start doing gigs, do a good job; be professional and pleasant to work with, accommodate as much as you can without being a doormat and word of mouth will get you better gigs.
 
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