Another Axefx vs Amps thread

[Bruce Sokolovic]

Relevant to this topic I suppose: last week I brought my AFX3 to my friend's studio, because he's a big tube amp guy and I wanted to A/B it with him to show that it's identical in tone, and thus I am the more supreme human being in all matters and his studio and land will be mine by right of ancient custom. He frequently uses one of those IR loaders in place of a cab (I've never used one), so the plan was to just disable the cab simulation and use that. Anyways, once we got started I realized I was woefully unprepared for the A/B, and it took us some time to get a good setup going as I hadn't even considered which outputs to use and how to make sure the test was equal. When we ran the test, we found the tones were almost identical, however, the real amp was a bit more raw sounding with a little more output to the cab, but most of that difference, to our ears, came from a significant low-mid boost the Axe's tone had in comparison which allowed the mids of the real amp to come through a little better. Everything else was indeed identical in tone, and his conclusion was that he liked both individually and would ideally use them for different purposes.

Anyways, I wish I had posted in the community beforehand to make sure I had the A/B test setup correctly, because I don't feel that I got my big "they're identical!" or "the Axe is clearly better" moment I was hoping for. The most obvious explanation for the differences is that there was a combination of the amp models not having the same exact components (the amp used was the 5150 Blue 100W, but there's only so much I know about amp models, and I neglected to investigate just how different the A/B models were) and the signal levels not being identical altogether - which I can guarantee was an issue because we struggled with it for a bit. But either way, it was the first time I'd heard the AFX side by side with a real amp, and even with the differences (likely setup error) you would never be able to tell one of them was a modeler, which was a really cool experience altogether.

I’ve found in my AB tests using the same IR, it was always easier to get the amp to sound like the model rather than dialing in the model to sound like the amp. I dont know why. But once I did that they were too close to matter. If I opened these sessions today and hid the track names I wouldn’t be able to tell.

 

[RifferMcDuck]

I’ve found in my AB tests using the same IR, it was always easier to get the amp to sound like the model rather than dialing in the model to sound like the amp. I dont know why. But once I did that they were too close to matter. If I opened these sessions today and hid the track names I wouldn’t be able to tell.

That's probably the one thing that was obvious, that they could easily be made to sound identical with a couple of minor tweaks. And at that point, any differences would be too small to even matter.

 

[yoitsmegabe]

Relevant to this topic I suppose: last week I brought my AFX3 to my friend's studio, because he's a big tube amp guy and I wanted to A/B it with him to show that it's identical in tone, and thus I am the more supreme human being in all matters and his studio and land will be mine by right of ancient custom. He frequently uses one of those IR loaders in place of a cab (I've never used one), so the plan was to just disable the cab simulation and use that. Anyways, once we got started I realized I was woefully unprepared for the A/B, and it took us some time to get a good setup going as I hadn't even considered which outputs to use and how to make sure the test was equal. When we ran the test, we found the tones were almost identical, however, the real amp was a bit more raw sounding with a little more output to the cab, but most of that difference, to our ears, came from a significant low-mid boost the Axe's tone had in comparison which allowed the mids of the real amp to come through a little better. Everything else was indeed identical in tone, and his conclusion was that he liked both individually and would ideally use them for different purposes.

Anyways, I wish I had posted in the community beforehand to make sure I had the A/B test setup correctly, because I don't feel that I got my big "they're identical!" or "the Axe is clearly better" moment I was hoping for. The most obvious explanation for the differences is that there was a combination of the amp models not having the same exact components (the amp used was the 5150 Blue 100W, but there's only so much I know about amp models, and I neglected to investigate just how different the A/B models were) and the signal levels not being identical altogether - which I can guarantee was an issue because we struggled with it for a bit. But either way, it was the first time I'd heard the AFX side by side with a real amp, and even with the differences (likely setup error) you would never be able to tell one of them was a modeler, which was a really cool experience altogether.

The night before my friend came over, I set up an a/b test with the axe going into a matrix into half of my 4x12 and my mesa mark v into the other half. A/b/y pedal to the inputs of the amp and axe fx. When my friend came over for me to show him how identical I got them he played then asked me, "which one is that?" I said..."I forgot." He played the "other" and we both shrugged because they sounded the same. We had to follow the cable to the input to see which was the amp.
Both of us got that "damn it's the same and better" we want to do the same with his diezel but he just had a kid. In due time.

 

[My name is mud]

Today I have redo some test playing the axe 3 in the return of the real JP2c head.

So I désactivate the cab sim, and also the power amp sim (because it was « logical » to me)
And it was weird. Some amp like the mark 4 for example sounded dead without the power amp modeling activated and some other amp were normal sounding .

It is recommended to turn on or off the power amp modeling ?

As I was using the head like a poweramp we need normally to desactivate it, isn’t it?

For the rest the axe sound ok like this, but I prefer it in my studio monitoring. With the whole chain

Running the head the sound was …( how to explain that )
Less attack, a little bit under water, darky? Hmm

That’s why it can be cool to have an official solution to play the axe with a standard cab. It’s better with a solid state power amp no?

What is the best poweramp for the axe, recommanded by fractal ?

That’s not my main goal to play with a cab, but who knows . I m not convinced through a tube head but maybe with another thing?

 

[PowerTube]

If the modeling were perfect, it wouldn't get updated. However, at this point (with respect to recording) the differences are often trivial to the point of irrelevance, and myriad listeners have been (and continue to be) fooled in blind tests.

Yeah, recording is a different animal. Modelers have fooled the ear on recordings for well over a decade.

 

[sprint]

It is recommended to turn on or off the power amp modeling ?

if I play thru my tube amp head return at low volume then I turn the p.a. modelling on to get a more cranked power amp tone aspect with the head's power amp set low, but, I turn off power amp modelling off if the head's p.a. is cranked or if I have the head's output attenuated (cranked with volume forced down). Seems logical for me - there's probably no right
/ wrong way.

 

[BBN]

You also need to make sure your Speaker Impedance Curve matches that of the load box.

I regularly do exactly what you are doing. Literally hundreds of times a year as this is part of how I model amps. I use an LB-2 load box and a real speaker in an isolation room. Hidden in the Axe-Fx is analysis software that I use to measure the amps when connected this way. I also do blind A/B tests using a footswitch. When I switch between the real amp and the Axe-Fx I hear differences as the frequency response will NEVER be identical unless you do a Tone Match due to component tolerances/drift/line voltage fluctuations/phase of the moon/etc. If I do a Tone Match it's very difficult to ascertain which is which.

When performing a tone match using the LB2 into my Axe3, should the Impedence Curve be set to LB2?
Then when that is compmete, do I change the Impedance Curve to match the cab I later plug into?

 

[Jason Scott]

Yeah, recording is a different animal. Modelers have fooled the ear on recordings for well over a decade.

I think it's gotten easier for modelers like the Axe-Fx to fool the ear.

 

[PowerTube]

I think it's gotten easier for modelers like the Axe-Fx to fool the ear.

I totally agree. And eventually, they'll have the "amp in the room" thing down, as well.

 

[Dimi Guitar]

I think it's gotten easier for modelers like the Axe-Fx to fool the ear.

I think so, and for "feel" also. There's units I've had that have been able to sound pretty close to a given tube amp with proper tweaking.

Before, I had never been fooled in feel tests, to the best of my memory. At least not with gainy tones. There's always been some give-away, even in a negative sense (in that it feels "worse").

Pod XT severely lacking dynamics, Kemper with the "Nelly Furtado" nuance to the feel, a boss unit with even more Furtado focus; then cortex later on, perhaps overall better results, but with something weird floating on the highs..

(Yet all these devices have been able to fool me plenty of times in audio tests).

But the first time it ever happened, to the best of my memory, that I DO get fooled in a feel test was with FM3 compared to a modded Marshall amp I've tried to replicate many times before.

And that was without EQ matching even.

(Generally I've been able get closer for "feel" , as personal as such a judgement is, with fractal devices from some revision of firmware and on).

 

[GotMetalBoy]

This is why I always say that modeling is about 90% there. The Axe-FX is among the best I've heard, but there's still that unexplainable "something" that's not quite nailed yet.

I run a Boss GT-100 across a Marshall JCM 2000 DSL 100 in 4-cable method, and totally love the sound. I'm sure the Fractal units are way superior to the GT-100, but I also feel that this gives me that missing element, the real amp in the room.

Having said that, I also believe that it'll be 100% nailed one day, and Fractal may very well be the company to accomplish this. Either way, I can't wait.

How many different Marshall JCM 2000 DSL 100 amps have you tried? I have never heard one that sounds the same and their differences are a lot more noticeable than the Axe-Fx II or III is to most of the amps modeled.

I hope you know that the amp in the room is a horrible sound and doesn't fit in a band or mix at all. It only sounds good when playing with yourself because it's using up most of the frequency spectrum. If you put a mic in front of your cab, I bet it sounds horrible because there will be way too much low and high end because most people don't have their cabs at ear level to hear what's really coming out of the speakers. I used to like the amp in the room sound until the first time I tried to record myself and was totally baffled why it sounded so bad when mic'ed.

The magic happened the first time I enabled the cab block in the global settings in my Axe-Fx II and plugged directly into a PA. It was the sound I always wanted because it was the sound I heard on all my favorite recordings. I'm the same way with drums. I prefer playing my electronic Roland V-Drums through Toontrack Superior Drummer because it sounds like the drums on all my favorite recordings.

 

[frankenbeans]

I totally agree. And eventually, they'll have the "amp in the room" thing down, as well.

They do. Run it as you would an amp in a room—through a cab…….

 

[Bruce Sokolovic]

How many different Marshall JCM 2000 DSL 100 amps have you tried? I have never heard one that sounds the same and their differences are a lot more noticeable than the Axe-Fx II or III is to most of the amps modeled.

I hope you know that the amp in the room is a horrible sound and doesn't fit in a band or mix at all. It only sounds good when playing with yourself because it's using up most of the frequency spectrum. If you put a mic in front of your cab, I bet it sounds horrible because there will be way too much low and high end because most people don't have their cabs at ear level to hear what's really coming out of the speakers. I used to like the amp in the room sound until the first time I tried to record myself and was totally baffled why it sounded so bad when mic'ed.

The magic happened the first time I enabled the cab block in the global settings in my Axe-Fx II and plugged directly into a PA. It was the sound I always wanted because it was the sound I heard on all my favorite recordings. I'm the same way with drums. I prefer playing my electronic Roland V-Drums through Toontrack Superior Drummer because it sounds like the drums on all my favorite recordings.

You’ll never beat those drum samples recorded by the best engineers with the best gear in the best rooms etc.

 

[666was999]

It is recommended to turn on or off the power amp modeling ?

Instead of an on/off way of thinking, you can also lower the master volume, that way you can dial in more or less influence of the power amp.

It took me a while to realize that when I had been gigginig with real amps ages ago I often had the master of the amp around 12 o clock, which was already plenty loud enough. So to get that sound and feel, I don't need the MV cranked, I better tweak it to my needs, between very hard, very clear, very direct (low MV) or softer, compressed, mid pronunced (more MV).

This is for AITR/ amp-like playing only, in the studio they usually crank it all up!

 

[My name is mud]

Instead of an on/off way of thinking, you can also lower the master volume, that way you can dial in more or less influence of the power amp.

It took me a while to realize that when I had been gigginig with real amps ages ago I often had the master of the amp around 12 o clock, which was already plenty loud enough. So to get that sound and feel, I don't need the MV cranked, I better tweak it to my needs, between very hard, very clear, very direct (low MV) or softer, compressed, mid pronunced (more MV).

This is for AITR/ amp-like playing only, in the studio they usually crank it all up!

Yes but I believed this option was to really use the axe 3 as a preamp only. And it seems it don’t act that way

 

[666was999]

Yes but I believed this option was to really use the axe 3 as a preamp only. And it seems it don’t act that way

You say "darkie", that's strange, the presence control can make it very brillant and sharp there.

 

[mr_fender]

Presence in most tube amps is in the negative feedback loop of the power amp section, so if power amp modeling is turned off, the presence control becomes a Hi Cut control on most amps. There are a few exceptions, like some of the Recto models, where the presence control is actually part of the preamp section.

 

[My name is mud]

Presence in most tube amps is in the negative feedback loop of the power amp section, so if power amp modeling is turned off, the presence control becomes a Hi Cut control on most amps. There are a few exceptions, like some of the Recto models, where the presence control is actually part of the preamp section.

ha !

 

[mr_fender]

Interestingly, in the block guide it says that when power amp modeling is turned off, Presence becomes a simple shelving filter (like Hi-Cut), but in testing with 20.02 Beta 1 it does not appear to do anything anymore when power amp modeling is turned off. It also says that since Cygnus the advanced page in the amp block shows both Presence and Hi-Cut for all models and that also does not appear to be the case. Seems to be some discrepancies there.

 

[AngusV]

Perhaps the missing something is similar to the difference between hearing a Spitfire Merlin engine roar as it it flies overhead and the sound hits you in the chest, vs a recording of the same event. The recording will never recreate the experience, just like recorded real amps cannot. Even at a live event where the guy has a marshal set up, you probably hear the miked up FOH sound anyway.

FWIW, I have a 800 watts rms custom built GRFR cab connected to my AXFXIII. Turn it up it and it sounds amazing!
I’ve had ‘‘em all. But the AXFX is so versatile and soo good, it is all I need.