Another Axefx vs Amps thread

[FractalAudio]

No. And this will get locked before long I'm sure. These threads somehow always go south because one wants to believe the Axe is perfect and can't benefit from these types of discussions.

Even I don't believe that because no product is perfect. But if you can't back it up then expect to be ridiculed. And how does the Axe-Effect "benefit"? Do you think that your opinion will somehow magically unlock some technical detail I've overlooked in my nearly 20 years of doing this?

 

[Heavyplayer]

Got any examples?

No, Cliff I'm just a guy on here bashing the Axe. I've never contributed any issues or any of the kind. The Mashall 410 in the Axe sounded like shit for almost two years before you found the problem, because you didn't want to listen to my opinion. My bad, just one of many.

 

[JTI]

Is this a Thumperjack flashback?

 

[Heavyplayer]

Even I don't believe that because no product is perfect. But if you can't back it up then expect to be ridiculed. And how does the Axe-Effect "benefit"? Do you think that your opinion will somehow magically unlock some technical detail I've overlooked in my nearly 20 years of doing this?

I'm not worried about be ridiculed. I know at the end of the day what I hear. And maybe it's to light a fire under your ass to dig deeper?

 

[Budda]

So to be clear you’ve contributed to the improvement of the unit but dont have factual proof of the claim?

 

[Heavyplayer]

So to be clear you’ve contributed to the improvement of the unit but dont have factual proof of the claim?

Whether it be bugs or issues with amps to soon be found, in one case years later I believe that to be a small contribution. No?

 

[Budda]

Whether it be bugs or issues with amps to soon be found, in one case years later I believe that to be a small contribution. No?

But the burden of proof is on you to prove that you did these things. The forum search is pretty good, I imagine you can dig them up easily.

 

[Heavyplayer]

But the burden of proof is on you to prove that you did these things. The forum search is pretty good, I imagine you can dig them up easily.

Seriously? This is a forum I don't have to prove a thing. You want proof, look it up. As far as the above post buy an amp and compare if you dare. Or be satisfied with the axe and just read. Either way I'm good.

 

[Heavyplayer]

The whole point of the thread was to give appreciation to what a great job Cliff has done thus far. But yeah I also included my opinion of the differences. Only Cliff knows if we can or cannot close the gap.

 

[strabes]

If it were me I would be thrilled that the owner and founder of the company replied to my thread telling me what the issue is with my A/B comparison and how I can "close the gap." If he's right I would be able to sell the amp and put hundreds or thousands of dollars back in my pocket. Seems worth it to take a few minutes to incorporate Cliff's advice and do a quick reamp A/B.

 

[laxu]

I've done some opposite approach testing with my setups.

I have the following amps/cabs:

• Victory VC35 + 1x12 with Alnico Gold. It's like a Vox AC30 without any of the bad parts. The Morgan AC-20 Deluxe model is quite close, Matchless DC30 sounds can be found too if you turn on the VC35's mid boost.
• BluGuitar Amp 1 Mercury edition + Bluetone 4x10 with 10" Greenbacks. Fender clean channel, 3 channels of Marshall type tones spanning Superlead to JCM800 to Soldano, Friedman, Bogner...just depends on how you dial the channels.
• Fryette Power Station 100, which I used as a poweramp in the following setups too, running both amps to its load box and Axe-Fx 3 to its line in.

I started with the BluGuitar vs Axe-Fx 3 Marshall Superlead models. The BluGuitar's best channel "Vintage" is based on Thomas Blug's 100W "Black Flag" Marshall. I plugged my Axe-Fx 3 into the loop of the BluGuitar using it as a poweramp and then started dialing in the model. I felt I got pretty close but it did not feel the same. The key for me was to set the speaker impedance curve to the closest perceptual match to my real cab. When set to the Brit 4x10 cab speaker impedance curve it sounded and felt very close to running the BluGuitar direct.

The Victory took some more time to figure out but ultimately I ended up doing the same with the AC-20 Deluxe model and its impedance curve. Again a close match and we are talking about amps that are not directly modeled by the Axe-Fx 3.

So that convinced me that yeah, the Axe-Fx 3 can sound/feel just as good through this setup. But I mostly use it with my Genelec M040 studio monitors so what about that? I decided to try the IR capture tool and shoot some IRs of my real cabs using a Sonarworks XREF20 reference mic (only mic I own). After doing that and figuring out a good mic placement, even the studio monitor setup sounded surprisingly similar to what I hear in the room at a low to moderate volume.

This was all on firmware 19.05 or something like that so I expect all the stuff in 20.xx is going to just make it even closer.

I run the real amps with a pedalboard in an overkill stereo setup and frankly the Axe-Fx 3 is just easier to manage for stereo and dual amp rigs. I do prefer the simplicity of my handful of pedals and the amps are equally simple affairs when used as a mono rig. But for me at least it's definitely not a question of tone or feel now but more just practical usability at this point.

If you are not getting expected results out of Fractal, most of the time the problem is not the modeling but your output system and setting things up right. An Axe-Fx 3 is like a mini studio in a box and that means it's not going to be as dead easy as guitar -> tube amp -> cab.

 

[sprint]

I have 2 tube amps on load boxes 4cm'ed into Axefx that i use in 3 different ways for each:

• Real tube amp pre > Axefx power amp model (tube pre model w pre neutral and p.a. parms set to compatible
  models)) > IR > FRFR with Axefx for pre/post fx.
• Tube amp pre + tube amp poweramp > real cab with Axefx for pre/post fx.
• Tube amp pre + tube power amp + load box > IR > FRFR with Axefx pre/post fx.

So keeping these hooked up this way and regularly switching between those and pure Axefx patches going to real cabs or FR, I've gotten a good dose of this type comparison (though not exactly the same as the Marshall based real amps I have (H+K and Blackstar) are not modelled in Axefx), and I have to say that I struggle to find something "better" in the tube amps - they do feel a bit different but I struggle to get my real amps sounding as good to my ear as my Marshall based Axefx only patches. Not saying this to be fanboyish - just been my experience as a hacker while trying to build and use a rig here that can seamlessly switch around to various combinations of real / digital pres, p.a., pedals, cabs, in full stereo - by no means a scientifically backed comment, so, as mentioned above, doesn't add much value, but an opinion nonetheless with a little real effort behind it fwiw. One thing I did not expect in relation to this type tinkering, is how good a lot of the Axefx drives sound paired to my real amps - don't know why I thought that would not work well but the Fractal ODs, distortions and boosts work as well or better than similar real pedals with my real amps. It's all all good now'days!!

 

[App12]

Sometimes I drive my truck. Sometimes the sports car. And occasionally the wife’s SUV. It just depends on what’s available, a specific need or what I randomly feel like driving. Lots of room for real amps and AxeFX. Shortly after getting my AxeFX III I grabbed it with a FRFR speaker instead of an amp to play with a friend in a medium sized room. My friend had a cheap amp and he sounded killer compared to me. Probably user error on my part, could have been the room, the speaker, my ears who knows. But now if I am going to play in a room with one or two other guitarists, I would just bring an amp. Same guy brought the same amp to play with us at a gig. He sounded okay thanks to FOH but the AxeFX sounded brilliant plus a lot less setup etc.

 

[JoKeR III]

My first thought after reading the initial post was to try different IRs, they are absolutely crucial in replicating any tone in the Axe. I've been on the Fractal train since 2015 and still have a few tube amps, none of which have been played since moving from the AX8 to the Axe-Fx III. The only difference for me has been playing an amp with a cab vs the Axe III with monitors. Tonally, there is no difference. Amp response, there is no difference. Feel, there is no difference. Air movement or filling the room with sound, there is a difference.

I realize that AITR is not part of the discussion here since you used a load box for the comparison. As Cliff pointed out, this changes the baseline of the test. Have you tried the Axe III in the effects loop of an amp going into the load box? It would be interesting to hear your thoughts after performing this test.

With all of the parameters in the Axe III, in combination with different IRs, it is very possible to 'close the gap' yourself should you desire to delve into the advanced parameters deeper.

I've said it before, I am very particular about my tone and will use whatever gives me what I need to achieve the tones I need. If an amp and pedalboard performed 'better' than the Axe III I would use it, hands down no question. The Axe Fx III provides everything I want or need without any compromise.

 

[Xcdchdchjjf]

For some unknown reason I been on a real amp kick lately and have bought a few and sent a few back. What I've found is the real amp will always have something more that the Axefx just can't do, and I hate to say that cause I love mine. Does that mean the Axe sucks? HELL NO! In fact I have to give Cliff more credit as I've been away from amps for so long I thought every time he'd say the amp model ( it's spot on) which drove me nuts LOL, was true, the underlining tone/character of the amp is there! BUT, in comparison the real amp sounds thicker, beefier, more dimensional, rounder.

Depending on your ears and the mix you may or may not hear the difference. Isolated you will. This isn't a thread to bash Cliff or his baby or ( insert Adam Sandler voice) my precious! It's in hopes for Cliff to dig deeper and see if he can figure out how to close that gap. AGAIN this is the Axe vs Amp in isolation playing NOT in a mix NOT live setting. Put your headphones on and play! The difference is there. But, and a HUGE but, is the difference you hear worth the extra $$$. Only you can decide that. I say if it's an amp you can afford or been wanting forever the difference might be worth it. Don't listen to everyone on here who reads the forum or everything on the internet and talks like their an amp expert. Do listen to Cliff! He has stated the Axe will never sound exactly like the real amp that's not verbatim, but doesn't mean it doesn't sound like the real thing, cause it does.

What I use is a Suhr loadbox and sennheiser 600 headphones and Axefx for everything else, One comparison I did was with a Marshall JVM 410H. Great amp indeed! BUT, omg is that fucking amp noisy! Why didn't you tell us how noisy that amp was Cliff?! And on the OD channels the gain past a certain point is totally unusable. And watch the channel volume and gain cause is will blow your ears apart with the screeching, noise.

If anyone has played that model on the Axe than you know we don't have that problem, EVER! But I could not get the Axe to give me that thick dimensional sound. Sadly in comparison the Axe is very clean, with a clank kind of sound, way less oomph, no matter how much I tweaked, where the amp is thick and bouncy and rounder, probably where the tubes make a huge difference. Very hard to describe sound as we all describe it differently.

I've tried the Laney Ironheart 60. Good amp. Why hasn't Cliff modeled it yet??? Well it's kind of already in the Axe, I believe it's the Brit Super for the most part. What about the Pre-boost you say. Use the boost Cliff gave us it's way better. The one on the amp, sorry sucks for the most part. The pull out knobs can be useful but aren't like OMG have to have them. Still a really good amp nonetheless.

I won't go into every amp. But last is the Mesa Boogie Mark V 90 head. This amp.......it's a badass. In comparison same as above. And somehow it make the effects I use really standout in a great way, like I can hear way more detail. Which is inspiring. And again the underlining tone is there in the Axe.
What I noticed is the Axe is way brighter than you'd think, don't try to copy exact settings from an amp. Probably the extended 5 band EQ.

And again Axe vs amp. Amp=beefier, dimensional, rounder, bouncy. Lots of parts that can and will take a shit on you! Axe=Same tone, cleaner, a bit brighter, clankish tone, loads of other effects/shit you don't know how to use. LOL AND way less likely to ever shit on you.

I'm going to leave it like this and say again not bashing the Axe, and say I was really surprised how close with just math/algorithms, how good Cliff has done in the modeling world. And the differences could be the real tubes, who knows. What I will say is I'm keeping some amps and the Axe is never going anywhere. I just touched on the amp modeling, and we all know it's so much more! In the future I would like if YOU Cliff would be so kind as to tell us whether the amp is noisy or shitty unusable gain, etc please. And I look forward to maybe one day you find a way to completely close that gap, cause it's over for the amp world if you do.

I said the other day that Cliff should make a "real tube amp" like a $1200 dumble or something. Who the H--- could pass up if the guy who made Fractal, made a TUBE amp....... heck make it $2400

 

[GreatGreen]

The whole point of the thread was to give appreciation to what a great job Cliff has done thus far. But yeah I also included my opinion of the differences. Only Cliff knows if we can or cannot close the gap.

...but he did tell you how to close the gap. He advised you to:

1. Set the Speaker Compliance knob to 0. This should bring back the beefy low end you said is missing from the models.
2. Do a Tone Match to further negate any remaining differences in overall EQ


Have you tried these things?

 

[Stratman68]

No. And this will get locked before long I'm sure. These threads somehow always go south because one wants to believe the Axe is perfect and can't benefit from these types of discussions.

NO ONE has said the Axe is perfect. You, from the very start made this confrontational by accusing early commenters of NOT reading your post. It's like you are arguing with yourself. Maybe read your own replies.

 

[Heavyplayer]

...but he did tell you how to close the gap. He advised you to:

1. Set the Speaker Compliance knob to 0. This should bring back the beefy low end you said is missing from the models.
2. Do a Tone Match to further negate any remaining differences in overall EQ


Have you tried these things?

If it were just low end I'm sure I could dial just that in but it's more then that. And a tone match? Really? Not interested in having a tone match over the real amp or amp model doing what I'd like or what it is modeled to do. Any slight adjusting or new firmware and it's usually back to the drawing board.

 

[Heavyplayer]

NO ONE has said the Axe is perfect. You, from the very start made this confrontational by accusing early commenters of NOT reading your post. It's like you are arguing with yourself. Maybe read your own replies.

And now I'm accusing you of not reading. For fuck sake man wear your glasses.

 

[Heavyplayer]

I'm open to read and listen to others experiences most are live or FRFR. I've done this as well and you can't hear as huge of a difference. What I been talking about all along is isolated. Where you can hear more of the differences. Again not OMG, but it's there. Live is a whole other situation and we all know WE the players care more about that than most listeners.