Announcing FM9 Turbo

[PixelPusher21]

CEO of Intel is a businessman, not a scientist. It is in his interest to tell you it will keep going for ages, as it affects his stock portfolio and company's bottom line. I would like to hear from a scientist, or at least an engineer....

Moore's law by its strictest definition is dead, however just look at apple. They are the example of how augmentation through memory speed, architecture(system on a chip) and software is keeping moore's law alive in the sense of doubling computing power. So while we are not going to be doubling density for much longer (3d layering), we are still doubling computing power in other ways. This is expected to continue for awhile and is what the INTEL CEO was alluding to. See, both of you are right and both of you are wrong.. even stevens as for the Chips inside the FM9, as far as I can tell this is not upgraded technology yet. From what I can tell, for the FM3 at least, they are using arm chips from 2011 inside the chip unit for processing (it is an integrated system on a chip) so as apple and android technology progresses those smaller chips will start to get passed down to digital signal processors. So moore's law for us buying modellers still has a ways to go.. at least that is what my humble brain can understand from the web search I just did because I am a nerd and also I do not know anything, but I am happy to share my expert opinion anytime.

 

[Greg Ferguson]

Moore's law by its strictest definition is dead, however just look at apple. They are the example of how augmentation through memory speed, architecture(system on a chip) and software is keeping moore's law alive in the sense of doubling computing power. So while we are not going to be doubling density for much longer (3d layering), we are still doubling computing power in other ways. This is expected to continue for awhile and is what the INTEL CEO was alluding to. See, both of you are right and both of you are wrong.. even stevens as for the Chips inside the FM9, as far as I can tell this is not upgraded technology yet. From what I can tell, for the FM3 at least, they are using arm chips from 2011 inside the chip unit for processing (it is an integrated system on a chip) so as apple and android technology progresses those smaller chips will start to get passed down to digital signal processors. So moore's law for us buying modellers still has a ways to go.. at least that is what my humble brain can understand from the web search I just did because I am a nerd and also I do not know anything, but I am happy to share my expert opinion anytime.

I think that’s a reasonable way of looking at it. Optimizing the performance of the instruction set for the tasks, like Apple did, was smart. Still, the writing is on the wall, they’re going to reach a point where they can’t get faster using the current technologies. Perhaps by that point the AI systems will be totally in charge of designing the chips, kind of like defining their own genetic material. And us biologicals won’t be needed.

Shades of Robopocalypse.

 

[PixelPusher21]

I think that’s a reasonable way of looking at it. Optimizing the performance of the instruction set for the tasks, like Apple did, was smart. Still, the writing is on the wall, they’re going to reach a point where they can’t get faster using the current technologies. Perhaps by that point the AI systems will be totally in charge of designing the chips, kind of like defining their own genetic material. And us biologicals won’t be needed.

Shades of Robopocalypse.

I also look at its as they have been shrinking so much that power has gone down tremendously and multiple cores are going to become so common that between stacking and increasing the size of the chips we will continue to see gains. If you remember, at one point memory speed was the bottleneck. That is why graphics cards started coming with more and more ram, to negate the system ram speed limit and then capacity. Now ram is so fast that an arm chip can run a laptop, I am on an M1 macbook air that smokes my Macbook pro from only 5 years ago. That is memory speed, not the processor. If they ever get optical memory working (optical computing) in a small enough form factor, that will be at or almost at the speed of light, and if a chip can access it fast enough it will be another large breakthrough in speed that will have large RAMifications on computing power.

 

[ChristThePhone]

Just curious, what was your source? Kinda hard to top the CEO of Intel as a reference, but I was more than willing to be proven wrong...

I work in server hardware development myself and while I see that Moore's law is apparently valid in some segments of the IT industry I don't see it happening anymore in the high end. With structure sizes shrinking and operating voltages to go down the leakage current increases. More cores on a smaller space effectively mean more power and heat making it harder and harder to cool that thing to the point where heat management cannot allow to run all cores at full speed at the same time. So the entire system architecture becomes more and more important (more CPU chips, bus speeds, IO throughput,...).

Speaking about Intel's CEO no wonder he's got a big mouth. They effectively were too late for 7nm which is how AMD gained a big market share so he has to somehow come up with something to keep his shareholders happy. (just my 2 cents not being an Intel insider)

 

[FXFanatic1!]

You spent an incredible amount of posts assuming that FAS would overcome a supply chain issue by overclocking a processor ...

It was a very simple question. Fractal answered it and we have moved on. I suggest you do the same.

 

[Brett336]

I don’t want to be negative but I think 10% is not enough for people who already have the FM9 to upgrade. For people on the waiting list this is good news though.

Is the TURBO more extra expansive than the standard?

I was hoping for an added pitch shifter block and larger size preset names.

+1 Nice update and I applaud navigating the messed up global supply chain.

Not enough for me to upgrade and I'll wait for something more substantial - like an Axe-III Mkii Turbo on the floor!

 

[Rex]

When I was working in fabs about 25 years ago, they were working really hard to reduce the die size for higher yields, but in R&D the size of the traces were so small they were having trouble moving the electrons through them. They are at the limits and are trying to find alternate ways of moving the signal from one side of the chip to the other. I haven’t cared about it enough to follow along since then so who knows where sub-micron lithography is these days.

When I was in the business (way more than 25 years ago ), they were struggling to break the micron barrier, and e-beam lithography was going to be the savior. I have less of an idea of the current state of that than you do.

 

[Ajegwu]

CEO of Intel is a businessman, not a scientist. It is in his interest to tell you it will keep going for ages, as it affects his stock portfolio and company's bottom line. I would like to hear from a scientist, or at least an engineer....

Gelsinger began his career in 1979 at Intel, becoming its first chief technology officer, and also serving as senior vice president and the general manager of the Digital Enterprise Group. He managed the creation of key industry technologies such as USB and Wi-Fi. He was the architect of the original 80486 processor, led 14 microprocessor programs and played key roles in the Intel® Core™ and Intel® Xeon® processor families, leading to Intel becoming the preeminent microprocessor supplier.

Gelsinger earned several degrees in electrical engineering: an associate degree from Lincoln Technical Institute, a bachelor’s degree from Santa Clara University and a master’s degree from Stanford University. He holds eight patents in the areas of VLSI design, computer architecture and communications, is an IEEE Fellow, and serves as a member of the National Security Telecommunications Advisory Committee.

 

[Fearuvthedark]

Gelsinger began his career in 1979 at Intel, becoming its first chief technology officer, and also serving as senior vice president and the general manager of the Digital Enterprise Group. He managed the creation of key industry technologies such as USB and Wi-Fi. He was the architect of the original 80486 processor, led 14 microprocessor programs and played key roles in the Intel® Core™ and Intel® Xeon® processor families, leading to Intel becoming the preeminent microprocessor supplier.

Gelsinger earned several degrees in electrical engineering: an associate degree from Lincoln Technical Institute, a bachelor’s degree from Santa Clara University and a master’s degree from Stanford University. He holds eight patents in the areas of VLSI design, computer architecture and communications, is an IEEE Fellow, and serves as a member of the National Security Telecommunications Advisory Committee.

 

[Joe Bfstplk]

Gelsinger began his career in 1979 at Intel, becoming its first chief technology officer, and also serving as senior vice president and the general manager of the Digital Enterprise Group. He managed the creation of key industry technologies such as USB and Wi-Fi. He was the architect of the original 80486 processor, led 14 microprocessor programs and played key roles in the Intel® Core™ and Intel® Xeon® processor families, leading to Intel becoming the preeminent microprocessor supplier.

Gelsinger earned several degrees in electrical engineering: an associate degree from Lincoln Technical Institute, a bachelor’s degree from Santa Clara University and a master’s degree from Stanford University. He holds eight patents in the areas of VLSI design, computer architecture and communications, is an IEEE Fellow, and serves as a member of the National Security Telecommunications Advisory Committee.

That's all very good, but those are all pretty far in the past, and he is a high-ranking businessman now, whose livelihood is more entwined with the company's stock than the company's product, so I think a grain of salt is still appropriate with his statements....

 

[GlennO]

Moor’s Law is alive and well in 2022, and Intel’s CEO expects it to continue for at least another decade.

Microprocessor development has fallen behind Moore's Law. Double the density every two years hasn't been true for about 10-15 years. That's not a matter of opinion. Anybody can look at the history of the past 10-15 years and see that's the case.

However, Intel's CEO, Pat Gelsinger, boasted last year that Intel, and nobody else, would be able to reverse this trend and start keeping up with Moore's law once again in the years ahead. There is no factual basis for this. He was just doing a marketing spiel about Intel's future.

Anybody who has a passing knowledge of the state of the microprocessor industry will be well aware of how far Intel has fallen behind the competition. That should probably influence how much faith you put in Gelsinger's boast. He was probably speaking metaphorically though, like saying "To Infinity and Beyond!". So, I don't think anybody is expecting him to actually deliver on that.

However, in spite of Moore's Law no longer holding true, there have been other developments that have been employed, besides density, to improve performance. So, I wouldn't lose any sleep over the passing of Moore's Law.

 

[Axe Grinder]

Microprocessor development has fallen behind Moore's Law. Double the density every two years hasn't been true for about 10-15 years. That's not a matter of opinion. Anybody can look at the history of the past 10-15 years and see that's the case.

However, Intel's CEO, Pat Gelsinger, boasted last year that Intel, and nobody else, would be able to reverse this trend and start keeping up with Moore's law once again in the years ahead. There is no factual basis for this. He was just doing a marketing spiel about Intel's future.

Anybody who has a passing knowledge of the state of the microprocessor industry will be well aware of how far Intel has fallen behind the competition. That should probably influence how much faith you put in Gelsinger's boast. He was probably speaking metaphorically though, like saying "To Infinity and Beyond!". So, I don't think anybody is expecting him to actually deliver on that.

However, in spite of Moore's Law no longer holding true, there have been other developments that have been employed, besides density, to improve performance. So, I wouldn't lose any sleep over the passing of Moore's Law.

Thanks for the interesting insights, @GlennO, I did not realize Intel had fallen behind, and try to keep up with the market on a very basic level when buying stocks like AMD, Nvidia, etc. Who is Intel's competition besides AMD, and who is leading the cutting edge currently?

 

[Axe Grinder]

Agreed about the CEO. They blabber and the scientists and engineers cringe.

When I was working in fabs about 25 years ago, they were working really hard to reduce the die size for higher yields, but in R&D the size of the traces were so small they were having trouble moving the electrons through them. They are at the limits and are trying to find alternate ways of moving the signal from one side of the chip to the other. I haven’t cared about it enough to follow along since then so who knows where sub-micron lithography is these days.

Well, I am an engineer, but not an Electrical... And even though I can build a full-sized arcade cabinet from scratch I don't know squat about the true mathematics behind the chips!

 

[Axe Grinder]

I work in server hardware development myself and while I see that Moore's law is apparently valid in some segments of the IT industry I don't see it happening anymore in the high end. With structure sizes shrinking and operating voltages to go down the leakage current increases. More cores on a smaller space effectively mean more power and heat making it harder and harder to cool that thing to the point where heat management cannot allow to run all cores at full speed at the same time. So the entire system architecture becomes more and more important (more CPU chips, bus speeds, IO throughput,...).

Speaking about Intel's CEO no wonder he's got a big mouth. They effectively were too late for 7nm which is how AMD gained a big market share so he has to somehow come up with something to keep his shareholders happy. (just my 2 cents not being an Intel insider)

Wow @ChristThePhone, thanks for sharing your knowledge! We've certainly got some very smart/interesting people on this forum. Obviously the only way to continue to improve the cooling is to reduce the nm of the architecture, right? I had no idea they were down to 7nm already... But didn't AMD recently screw something up with their chips? (Last off-topic comment regarding this.)

 

[Axe Grinder]

Moore's law by its strictest definition is dead, however just look at apple. They are the example of how augmentation through memory speed, architecture(system on a chip) and software is keeping moore's law alive in the sense of doubling computing power. So while we are not going to be doubling density for much longer (3d layering), we are still doubling computing power in other ways. This is expected to continue for awhile and is what the INTEL CEO was alluding to. See, both of you are right and both of you are wrong.. even stevens as for the Chips inside the FM9, as far as I can tell this is not upgraded technology yet. From what I can tell, for the FM3 at least, they are using arm chips from 2011 inside the chip unit for processing (it is an integrated system on a chip) so as apple and android technology progresses those smaller chips will start to get passed down to digital signal processors. So moore's law for us buying modellers still has a ways to go.. at least that is what my humble brain can understand from the web search I just did because I am a nerd and also I do not know anything, but I am happy to share my expert opinion anytime.

That confirms my basic understanding that compared to PCs and smart phones, the chips used in music gear are (mostly) comparatively pretty old technology, not cutting edge but it also takes a huge chunk out of the current "cutting edge" chip prices as well. Consequently, I think an FM9 Turbo - for all it can do - is at a very fair price...

 

[Ajegwu]

Wow @ChristThePhone, thanks for sharing your knowledge! We've certainly got some very smart/interesting people on this forum. Obviously the only way to continue to improve the cooling is to reduce the nm of the architecture, right? I had no idea they were down to 7nm already... But didn't AMD recently screw something up with their chips? (Last off-topic comment regarding this.)

AMD is realeasing their 5nm chips next week.

 

[dejoblue]

I am so envious; how dare you...oh a new Firmware update AND new presets AND new USB firmware AND new Manual;

Looks like everyone gets Christmas!!!

But seriously; does the honeymoon ever end?

I've had the FM9 going on 9 months and had the FM3 over a year and they both never lost their luster; maybe it is the perpetual updates?

I would note that whenever I take a break and get back to playing, the FM9 sounds and feels better than I remembered; I think it is at the point of "hyper-realistic", i.e. on the cusp of being better than the real thing.

Cheers!

 

[dean701]

Thanks for the interesting insights, @GlennO, I did not realize Intel had fallen behind, and try to keep up with the market on a very basic level when buying stocks like AMD, Nvidia, etc. Who is Intel's competition besides AMD, and who is leading the cutting edge currently?

Intel didn't really fall behind. They chose a different strategy - to maximize throughput on the current size. There is nothing to say that a 5nm chip is faster than a 10nm chip although long term smaller is better.
The nm spec usually defined the size of a transistor’s gate length and metal half-pitch (half the distance between the beginning of one metal interconnect and the next on a chip), which were both the same size. That reality stopped in the 90s, however, and ever since then, the ‘nm’ measurement has been nothing more than a marketing term.
A new ‘nm’ size does indicate that there’s been a significant improvement in the manufacturing technology, but it has nothing to do with a specific measurement you could carry out on the processor itself.
That’s why, for example, many critics say that Intel’s 10nm node, which it currently uses in laptops for CPU families such as Tiger Lake and Ice Lake, is comparable to TSMC’s 7nm node.
So why is ‘nm’ still used? Basically, inertia. It’s what tech companies have always done so they keep doing it.
Having said that, Intel has roadmapped a 1.8nm or 18 angstom chip for 2025

 

[Axe Grinder]

Intel didn't really fall behind. They chose a different strategy - to maximize throughput on the current size. There is nothing to say that a 5nm chip is faster than a 10nm chip although long term smaller is better.
The nm spec usually defined the size of a transistor’s gate length and metal half-pitch (half the distance between the beginning of one metal interconnect and the next on a chip), which were both the same size. That reality stopped in the 90s, however, and ever since then, the ‘nm’ measurement has been nothing more than a marketing term.
A new ‘nm’ size does indicate that there’s been a significant improvement in the manufacturing technology, but it has nothing to do with a specific measurement you could carry out on the processor itself.
That’s why, for example, many critics say that Intel’s 10nm node, which it currently uses in laptops for CPU families such as Tiger Lake and Ice Lake, is comparable to TSMC’s 7nm node.
So why is ‘nm’ still used? Basically, inertia. It’s what tech companies have always done so they keep doing it.
Having said that, Intel has roadmapped a 1.8nm or 18 angstom chip for 2025

Ah... thanks for the insights, @dean701. It's kinda like back when the video game console companies used to say "16 bit" or "32 bit", it completely depended on the other chips in the build and how the rest of the architecture was designed, but "# of bits" was the marketing gimmick that stuck and was not always relevant.

 

[dzais]

Hi, the beginning of this thread said that the plan was to begin wait list invitations in august. Just wanted to know if that actually happened and are they beginning to ship again?

Thanks