An Experiment: Leveled Drive Blocks

[iaresee]

I think it was @TRTTRTTRT who was asking for leveled drive blocks. I wanted to see what would happen if I leveled all of them using the default settings.

The results -- aren't great. A good majority of them don't sound their best at the default settings. Some don't even have unity gain output available at their default settings. That's to be expected. There's a lot of interaction between the drive, tone and final output level of drive pedals, and so it is inside the Axe-Fx II as well.

If you want to try them out, here's a download bundle of effects blocks. They're for an XL+ but Axe-Edit should translate them.

After performing the experiment I'm firmly in the camp of not having them leveled; it isn't worth it. Too much changes as you move the drive and tone controls and so many of them need that to happen before the model really comes alive. You learn nothing comparing default value, leveled drive models to each other essentially.

Edit: For those downloading the bundle -- yes, I know I suck at spelling.

 

[groovenut]

After performing the experiment I'm firmly in the camp of not having them leveled; it isn't worth it. Too much changes as you move the drive and tone controls and so many of them need that to happen before the model really comes alive. You learn nothing comparing default value, leveled drive models to each other essentially.

I am firmly in this camp. I feel they should behave as the originals did.

 

[chris]

Great test and good to know the results.

I think majority of people who wish things like this mostly want default settings to "sound good." On one hand, most things don't sound good at a neutral default like all knobs at 12 o' clock. And similarly, if the "defaults" were made to have particular settings that "sound good," that may not be much of a default at all.

Amps and drive pedals have so much interaction within their controls, and it's that interaction which creates the range of tones that different people like.

That said, with just a little bit of work - turning drive, MV, and basic EQ Controls - we can get our own ideal tone from the amps very quickly these days.

 

[iaresee]

I think majority of people who wish things like this mostly want default settings to "sound good." On one hand, most things don't sound good at a neutral default like all knobs at 12 o' clock. And similarly, if the "defaults" were made to have particular settings that "sound good," that may not be much of a default at all.

Yes, this is on the money I think. And you're right: just the level alone doesn't get you to "good". Plus, "good" is highly subjective. Most of these drive models have a range of "good" settings.

 

[randombastage]

On a possibly related point...

If I add a drive block to a preset, edit the block's parameters, then select a different drive model for that block, does the newly selected drive model appear with particular/inherent 'default' setting or do some, or all, of the settings of the previous model dictate the newly added models settings? I haven't tested it yet but I swear it seems some of the settings, "drive" for example, remain from the previous model. I believe I have observed this behavior on Amp blocks and I think I saw it on Drive blocks as well.

And...what does 'resetting the block' do since it doesn't seem to provide the same 'default' settings that initially selecting a block does?

 

[TRTTRTTRT]

My attitude is that volume isn't the thing that makes drives special. I have owned dozens of drive pedals and yes tonnes of them are VERY similar. But. If I'm trying to compare drives I'm looking for a sound not a volume.

Thanks for doing this though! Very much!

 

[iaresee]

My attitude is that volume isn't the thing that makes drives special. I have owned dozens of drive pedals and yes tonnes of them are VERY similar. But. If I'm trying to compare drives I'm looking for a sound not a volume.

And you won't get "a sound" by adjusting the level only. Far more parameters need to be adjusted, which only end up necessitating further output level adjustments, before you've got "a sound". So having them leveled at default settings is largely useless.

 

[iaresee]

If I add a drive block to a preset, edit the block's parameters, then select a different drive model for that block, does the newly selected drive model appear with particular/inherent 'default' setting or do some, or all, of the settings of the previous model dictate the newly added models settings?

Any changes you made Drive, Tone, Bass, Mid Freq, Mid, Treble, Mix, Level, Balance will persist from model to model change in the drive block. Low cut, high cut, clip type -- they'll all be adjusted to match the model as you change it irregardless of whether you've made tweaks to this or not.

And...what does 'resetting the block' do since it doesn't seem to provide the same 'default' settings that initially selecting a block does?

Resetting the block block puts it back to it's default state: all the controls go to an initial value and the model is set to Rat Dist.

 

[TRTTRTTRT]

And you won't get "a sound" by adjusting the level only. Far more parameters need to be adjusted, which only end up necessitating further output level adjustments, before you've got "a sound". So having them leveled at default settings is largely useless.

Well that's not been my experience in the real world at all. It's kinda like saying all amps sound the same aside from volume. Which again has never been my experience.

There's literally 50+ low gain pedals on the market and they often sound quite different. At the same volume.

Maybe it's that you haven't ever had 5 or more gain pedals in front of you at once to compare. Eq can be different, how they clip, how they compress, how but they clean up, how they colour the sound or let the amp sound shine through. All of those things can be heard at unity volume.

It's a mystery to me that you don't understand that, because it's an established fact as far as most pedal guys are concerned. The difference between drive pedals is not just volume.

Obviously some pedals do a lot but like Brett Kingman said the default settings on the drive pedals are kinda strange. And there's certainly no reason to have a system where you have to dive for the volume knob every time you switch drive types. At least I can't imagine who that benefits.

 

[RickTN]

with REAL drive pedals...I always had the volume on unity gain....I didn't need them for more volume....the need is for the tone and the breakup point.....if I wanted just slightly more volume....say for soloing......a clean boost was good for that

 

[chris]

The difference between drive pedals is not just volume.

I don't think he said it was.

 

[Stratman68]

Well that's not been my experience in the real world at all. It's kinda like saying all amps sound the same aside from volume. Which again has never been my experience.

There's literally 50+ low gain pedals on the market and they often sound quite different. At the same volume.

Maybe it's that you haven't ever had 5 or more gain pedals in front of you at once to compare. Eq can be different, how they clip, how they compress, how but they clean up, how they colour the sound or let the amp sound shine through. All of those things can be heard at unity volume.

It's a mystery to me that you don't understand that, because it's an established fact as far as most pedal guys are concerned. The difference between drive pedals is not just volume.

Obviously some pedals do a lot but like Brett Kingman said the default settings on the drive pedals are kinda strange. And there's certainly no reason to have a system where you have to dive for the volume knob every time you switch drive types. At least I can't imagine who that benefits.

Come on now TRT, Ian knows that...he never said that was the only difference...Quite the opposite. I mean you did read his posts so I don't know how you get that..?The guy knows his way around equipment...

 

[TRTTRTTRT]

Come on now TRT, Ian knows that...he never said that was the only difference...Quite the opposite. I mean you did read his posts so I don't know how you get that..?The guy knows his way around equipment...

I did read his posts.

The point I don't buy into is that the volume difference is a crucial part of the sound of drives and that you can't meaningfully differentiate between drives at the same volume.

Because if you CAN - and you can - then there could be a meaningful option on the FX8 To preview drives - all at the same volume.

That's NOT to say tweaking them won't change their volume, the same goes for most music gear with gain stages - but but I believe I SHOULD BE able to switch between a Rat and Pi Fuzz without having to be scared I'm about to have my head ripped off. Those both have distinct sounds and being able to a/b them easily without having to save volume tweaked blocks seems like it should be basic functionality.

 

[is9582]

Did you download the bundle that Ian posted, and test these for yourself? Just curious, as I understand your position, but didn't ever see that you tested these.

 

[Stratman68]

TRT
I know you read his posts-I said that? I really do not understand the big deal. I don't have your issue and evidently neither do 10,000 -2 = 9,998 others.
Some amp blocks are louder than others, many actually....why don't you have the issue there?

Point being...I am always aware there may be a volume difference when working on my presets so I am prepared. Be it amp block level or drive block drive parameter.
Ian's post makes perfect sense but you do not see it that way. No one is going to change your mind.
While I agree there are volume differences I do not agree that the solutions is as you state it. I also do agree that it would do more harm than good.
Sometimes we just have to adjust our workflow....happens all the time-shouldn't be that big an issue but evidently it is.

I hope you get it worked out for yourself...Works fine for me.

 

[TRTTRTTRT]

Did you download the bundle that Ian posted, and test these for yourself? Just curious, as I understand your position, but didn't ever see that you tested these.

I haven't as it's Christmas.

I will though.

My concern would be that if the drives do really all sound the same then the FX8 needs more drives.

Which is probably true wither way, but would be more pressing if upon equalising the volume drives where either unusable or indistinguishable.

I tend to use the same few over and over and am happy with them. Just so everyone knows my position. : )

 

[TRTTRTTRT]

TRT
I know you read his posts-I said that? I really do not understand the big deal. I don't have your issue and evidently neither do 10,000 -2 = 9,998 others.
Some amp blocks are louder than others, many actually....why don't you have the issue there?

Point being...I am always aware there may be a volume difference when working on my presets so I am prepared. Be it amp block level or drive block drive parameter.
Ian's post makes perfect sense but you do not see it that way. No one is going to change your mind.
While I agree there are volume differences I do not agree that the solutions is as you state it. I also do agree that it would do more harm than good.
Sometimes we just have to adjust our workflow....happens all the time-shouldn't be that big an issue but evidently it is.

I hope you get it worked out for yourself...Works fine for me.

I have an FX8 No amp blocks.

And if you go and look at my original Wish thread you'll see others DO have the same problem. ..

And of course what's the harm of creating an option that makes it easier for some people to use?

Hard to understand your resistance to that.

 

[Stratman68]

I have an FX8 No amp blocks.

And if you go and look at my original Wish thread you'll see others DO have the same problem. ..

And of course what's the harm of creating an option that makes it easier for some people to use?

Hard to understand your resistance to that.

First off there were less than 5 others.

But most of all I don't understand your resistance to just "turning down the drive", that's what I do first thing. Is it really that big an effort. I don't have to do that anymore because long ago I "saved" all the drive block pretty much where I like to start off in a preset.
Same with other blocks that I felt I needed to do this with.

You made your wish and I guess we will see. Are you that stubborn that you won't spend 45 minutes to do this and then wait and see how your wish goes? Arguing about it does not help one way or the other.

I am officially out of this thread and any others on this subject Good luck fellow forumite...

 

[iaresee]

I did not say they sound the same. I said:

A good majority of them don't sound their best at the default settings.

So default settings plus unity gain means an awful representation of the model. More than just leveling the output of the models is required. Unique defaults for each model would be required as well. And given the Fractal tech doesn't do defaults that way, it makes leveling them mostly useless.

 

[TRTTRTTRT]

First off there were less than 5 others.

But most of all I don't understand your resistance to just "turning down the drive", that's what I do first thing. Is it really that big an effort. I don't have to do that anymore because long ago I "saved" all the drive block pretty much where I like to start off in a preset.
Same with other blocks that I felt I needed to do this with.

You made your wish and I guess we will see. Are you that stubborn that you won't spend 45 minutes to do this and then wait and see how your wish goes? Arguing about it does not help one way or the other.

I am officially out of this thread and any others on this subject Good luck fellow forumite...

OK.

Well that's fine.

I would say that you basically said that no one else cared. 5 others going in to the wish forum, finding that wish and voting for it seems like more than no one but then again maths was never my strong suit.

I can obviously turn things down; the point is that I don't see who benefits from them being so dramatically different and I cant see why something that some people would obviously appreciate needs to be attacked or derided.

And can anyone tell me how their extreme volume mismatch benefits anyone? What are they scared of losing? Extra work?