AMP MATCHING TUTORIAL with Preset template and commented Axe Edit picture

[Morphosis]

Hi,

because i does Amp matching successful in the past with my axe Standard and the VST plugin Ozone EQ (which seems does exactly the same, the new TM Block does) i tried to make a pictured tutorial (see attached files) and a AMP MATCHING template Preset for downloading (see attached files). Because i could do this only theoretical, somebody with an Axe II who wants to match his Amp arsenal can try the preset and correct it, if anything is wrong. For me without the Axe II face2face i have to do some assumptionswho have to be verified:

- Synth Block: Because rosa noise or a sine sweep guarantee much better matching results i want to use the synth Block as test tone generator. As Cliff stated: 3rd voice to sine and sweep through the frequencies by a LFO connected to the Frequency. DOES the synth block generate audio signals itself? And IF, which adjustments have to be done, to achieve that?

I Hope this will work! Perhaps anybody can comment!

- TM-Block: Local routing should work correctly, right?

So, if it work as i think it should:

- Load the preset in your axe 2
- connect the outboard gear to match ( real Amp ) to the left IN2/OUT2
- Play guitar through the axe input, adjust your Amp to taste
- Play guitar through the axe input and find a similiar Axe Amp block, a cab and the right gain.
- NOTE: You can Bypass the external Amp by bypassing the FX block. The same with the internal Amp block (both: bypass = MUTE!)
- If you have finsihed your adjustments on the Amp block BYPASS the Cab block and disconnect your Guitar - you should not needed to match! - use instead the more accurate testtone generated by the synth block!!!!!!!

-> MATCH YOUR AMP and share the presets. The matched AMP will be represented by the adjusted AMP BLOCK + the TONE MATCH BLOCK.


Thats all folks! And i bet, you can match real Amps to 99% in the Axe! I`ve done it with my Koch Studiotone - it works!


DOWNLOAD nad watch THE ATTACHED MANUAL PICTURE FOR THE ATTACHED AMP MATCH TEMPLATE for better understanding! The picture is big! (1024 pixel width)

CORRECT THE PRESET AND ME IF I AM WRONG ......

 

[Morphosis]

So, what i describe above for AMP matching with the Axe II I´ve done in partnership with the owner of a 1969 Clone Plexi with 4x12" Greenback Cabinet. We have matched his Amp with Ozone EQ Match, Sine Wave as test tone and generate a CAB IR for the Axe standard.

Hearing is believing: Embedded A/B Comparison and preset + matched cab IR you`ll find here:

http://forum.fractalaudio.com/ultra...-std-ultra-participate-beauty.html#post665123

So, imagine how better the Axe II will do the job .... ?!

 

[Don7v]

Hi,

I want to match my amp (ENGL Steve Morse) head and came across your suggestion. I have a question though. So, my amp has a preamp output on the back and a poweramp output as well. Since I want to capture only the preamp of my head amp I could patch the preamp's out signal of the head to the IN2L of the Axe II and set the TMA reference source to IN2L. So, I can play guitar connected to the real amp and hearing the tone the Axe reads from, say, the Axe's headphones. Correct? Then unplug the guitar from the amp after having captured the amp's signal and plug it to the Axe II and use the powerball model for the local signal. Could this work? And if yes could I try putting a synth block (brilliant) before amp and TMA block in the row? What do you suggest?

Thanks
Don

 

[symphx]

? Im totally lost, any suggestions on how to tone match/amp match a combo amp? do I mic the combo amp?

 

[Morphosis]

Hi,

I want to match my amp (ENGL Steve Morse) head and came across your suggestion. I have a question though. So, my amp has a preamp output on the back and a poweramp output as well. Since I want to capture only the preamp of my head amp I could patch the preamp's out signal of the head to the IN2L of the Axe II and set the TMA reference source to IN2L. So, I can play guitar connected to the real amp and hearing the tone the Axe reads from, say, the Axe's headphones. Correct? Then unplug the guitar from the amp after having captured the amp's signal and plug it to the Axe II and use the powerball model for the local signal. Could this work? And if yes could I try putting a synth block (brilliant) before amp and TMA block in the row? What do you suggest?

Thanks
Don

Hi Don,

i reworked the preset - you`ll find the attachment. Also a screenshot.

1) I`ve put a Mixer Block in Front of the FX Block to make sure i`ll route the Guitar signal to the left FX Block in. Could be redundant.
2) Because you just want to capture the Amp Preamp i insert the CAB Block AFTER the tonematch Block. This means: You`ll switch your guitar to the front in of the axe (=INPUT 1 LEFT). Because you connect the FX loops left out (LEFT OUTPUT2) to your Amp Guitar In and your Amp preamp out to the return of the FX Block ( = LEFT INPUT 2), you should now play your REAL Amp AND The Axe FX Amp through the Same guitar CAB IR, what makes sense to find a good matching starting point by tweaking the AXe FX Block!
3) ALL INPUTS (Axe AMP) and the FX LOOP Routing In are switch to LEFT. (because you use the guitars LEFT Input on the axe!). Thats the mixer block for - as you`ll see it put row2 to left and mono out. Could be senseless. try to put the block out and see, if it still works...
4) FX Loop and Amp Block is MUTED when bypassed. SO: MUTE FIRST THE SYNTH BLOCK, because you need that only after you noodling guitar and set your Amp block to similiar settings as your real amp! Than with BYPASSING the fx loop AND the Amp Block NO signal should be longer heard from your guitar! You can Bypass the one or the other and make your A/B tests while playing guitar!
5) If you are satisfied disconnect the guitar, SWITCH THE SYNTH BLOCK ON and feed the pink noise or sine sweep into the reference and local place of the tm block. reference is set to ROW 1 LEFT, because this is the routing coming from the fx block (= real Amp). local block is set to RIGHT, because the amps out is balanced to right! I don`t know if setting the reference to INPUT2 will work! In this case, it could be, that the fx Block routing through your amp will be ignored! I AM MORE SURE ROW1 / LEFT will work. You have to try it...

MAKE SURE THE LEVELS COMING INTO THE TM BLOCK FROM BOTH SIGNALCHAINS WILL BE SIMILIAR HIGH .... FOR BEST MATCHING RESULTS

ALSO MAKE SURE THE LEVELS TO AND FROM THE REAL AMP ARE GOOD!

6) Match the testone coming from the synthblock
7) Bring the TM Block out of the routing from your real Amp by sliding it DIRECTLY after the AMP Block. Only the Amp block should feed the signal right now AFTER matching the TM block for sure ...

8) Put back your guitar into the axe and bypass the one or the other block (amp / FX Loop) to A/B your matching result.

9) If not perfect, try new Amp settings and redo step 5) - 8)


PLEASE INFORM US, IF THIS WORKS! OR WHATS WRONG AND NAME CORRECTIONS FOR THE TEMPLATE PRESET!

? Im totally lost, any suggestions on how to tone match/amp match a combo amp? do I mic the combo amp?

Yes! So, if not a line level from a DI Signal (e.g Preamp Out with or w/o Speakersimulation of the real AMP) hit the INPUT 2 LEFT (FX LOOP RETURN), You may need a MIC Preamp, who feed the signal coming from the mic into the Axe FX. For Sure: If you Match WITH a real Cab or speaker, the CAB IR have placed only in the signal route of the axe fx Amp, like in my old template...

 

[Morphosis]

Also the pictured Manual for my AMP Matching template Preset as download in a size you can read

http://www.myimg.de/?img=AxeIIAMPMATCHINGTUTORIAc48d0.jpg

If it not work, try putting the mixer block in front of the FX Loop as in the V2-Preset I`ve attached above ....

would be awesome, if anybody can confirm, if this works?! Or suggest corrections or better ways ... but i like the idea, if you can A/B testing before and after Matching through the axe direct w/o connect and disconnect your guitar from axe to real amp and back .... this and the fact, that the synth Block must feed its signal to the real amp are the main reasons to bring the real deal into the fx loop .....

 

[Don7v]

Hey Morphosis,

First of all thank you for the support you give to the forum with all this set up!! I have spent countless hours trying to match my ENGL. Your setup v2 (and 1 as well) actually works! You can listen to the amp block's preamp (eg. energyball) through my axe fx headphones and when you by pass it and unbypass the FXBLOCK (actual amp) you can listen to the real amp through the cabin. Also you can listen to both when synth block is ON. You hear the muddy signals of the Synth block both when you play the real amp and when you're playing the energy ball's preamp. The only trouble I have dealing with your setup is how am I gonna listen to the real amp's preamp?? I have tried to achieve this a million times but I cant....And this because I dont want to listen the energyball through a cab and then listen my real amp through its real cab and try match those two. The selection of cabs within the axe is tricky finding the right one, except if you have captured the real amp's cab....which I havent done that yet.

So, since I know that the "send" FX loop of real amp is actually sending the preamp's signal, I made the 4CM connections....or I am doing it all wrong and you dont mean these connections by mentioning that "connect the outboard gear to match ( real Amp ) to the left IN2/OUT2".

So the big question--> since I dont want to put cabs into the equation, how can I listen to the real amp's preamp through the axe's headphones (without caring what is coming out of the real cab (which of course would be the sound that I am after)?? That way I can make adjustments to the energyball's preamp sound I am listening to in order to match the real amp's preamp.

I wish we could go through this via skype.

Don

 

[Morphosis]

Hi Don,

don`t have skype But in general you understand me right.

Note: Using the "send" X loop of your amp is JUST the preamp without the voicing of the power amp of your real Amp! So, the eqal thing in the Axe FX AMP would be to set the "sag Control" to 0 (= Power amp sim. OFF)

If you want to capture the whole amp you must feed a signal from the real amp INCLUDING power ampto the INPUT 2 L (=FX Loop lock of the axe fx). This can be done with a power soaker....

If You want to capture the sound of your real Amp AND the real speaker you have to feed a miced signal from the speaker to the Axe fx (probably a mic preamp is needed).

But for testing the routing, let`s go on:

So, while you playing guitar through the axe and if FX BLOCK is UNBYPASSED you hear the real amp through your real cabinet, right? This means we have a signal out from the FX Block (OUT 2 L) to the input of the real amp. Fine.

But we did not get the signal back from the real amp (fx loop sent real amp) into the FX BLOCK (Input 2 L) through the headphone of the axe, right? so we have to find out, where the routing stopped the signal:

- Confirm that the LEDs on the Axe FX INPUT 2 LEFT blink ( = get signal). IF NOT:
-> Make sure, the input gain of the INPUT 2 of the Axe FX is open! [ I/O Menu INPUT 2 <0 % !!!! ]
-> Make sure Copy OUT1 to OUT2 is OFF. [I/O Menu COPY OUT 1 TO OUT 2] If its on, the FX Loop on the axe won`t work!

If this is confirmed and the LEDs of INPUT 2 (left) will not show signal, the real amp seems not sending a signal! Check your amp settings and connections.

IF the LEDs of INPUT2 will show signal, this confirms that the Axe receive signal from your real amp. So, when you nothing heard through your headphones (= OUTPUT 1 path from the Axe FX), the signal is lost between the FX LOOP block from the Axe FX and the routing to OUT1. So: Play in the FX LOOP Block from the Axe FX with the OUTPUT [switch from Mono to stereo] and also with the Balance 2 [switch from -100 to 0 to +100].

I don`t think this is the problem, i believe the Axe don`t show a signal coming into INPUT 2, right? Last IDEA: BYPASS the TM Block or put it out off the signal routing ... perhaps the TM Block blocks the signal coming from the real amp ?

MAN .... i need the real Axe II side-by-side ... so YOU are now my man to check that out Let`s do it!!!!!! I´m sure -it works!


Please give me feedback on these suggestions.

Please give me also feedback, if the synthblock generate a audio signal by itself (pink noise or the sweeping sine from voice3 with the connected sweeping LFO through the frequencies...)

Please confirm (do i understand you right?) that the guitar signal path the synthblock when BYPASSED AND UNBYPASSED. What happen with the signal, if synthblock is ON?


All in all: We are on a good way, when you confirm, that with bypassing AMP Block ans FX loop no signal is longer heard and only the Axe AMP if block is UNBYPASSED. Now we have to make sure, that this also will work the same with the FX LOOP Block (=the real AMP).

PS: On my Axe Standard i have the OUTPUT 2 hardware level fully open! For me, this is the right level to go into the real amp ....... if i am right, this is also suggested for the axe II, but i am not sure. You have to experiment ....

 

[Don7v]

Ok so I think I did the first preamp tone match successfully! But I didint use the synth block (it was bypassed all the time). When amp block (energy ball is off) I tried to get the signal from the fx loop through the headphones (and the real cab of course). I realised later on that the send on real amp's fx loop actually sends a signal of the real preamp to the axe through input 2L (duhh I coundt realise earlier)...but I wasnet able to hear it. So, while the TMA block was un bypassed there was no sound. I then routed the signal to the TAM block by switching the input source to IN2 of course...still nothing. But when I did that and then bypassed the TMA block: SIGNAL was coming through!!! And be sure that this was the signal provided form the real preamp (because I changed channels and voicings and they responded to the headphones)! Then I tried to find a similar sound to the energy ball by setting all the knobs exactly as in the real amp and playing with the drive knob of the energy ball afterwards.

About the levels: Power amp volume of the real amp (i.e. Master volume) is not needed to be loud or even heard at all because I am pushing the level upwards via the preamp's volume knobs!!! So this is great I think!

TMA Block: When I was satisfied I unbypassed the TMA blcok and I had no sound as I expected. BUT...When you go to edit of the TMA (with the FX Loop ON) and press X and play something it responded perfectly!!! The exact same happened when I pressed Y for the energyball!

the LEDs on the Axe FX INPUT 2 LEFT blink! I have set poweramp sims off and cabs bypassed. IN2 virtual knob is set to 100%...out 1 and OUT2L at unity gain. Despite these extreme settings ALL leds go up to orange levels (the IN1 both columns light AND the input's 2 both columns light as well).

I didnt go with the synth block cause I dont know how to feed the signal back. However, When I play through the FX loop on (real amp and the energyball is bypassed) I set the SYNTH block to un bypassed and I have the muddy synth sound (you know how it sounds). The same happens when I try the energy ball and then unbypass the synth block!

 

[Morphosis]

OK, DON, sounds great ;-) So, it works Please give me answers to:

- Is the Mixer Block obsolete? Can we put`em out?
- TMA reference Input settings: You switch to INPUT 2 and that worked? Did it also work if you define the routing ROW1 and left (what should bring the same input because it is the definiton from FX LOOP Block out (=balance left). Doesn`t matter?
- If TMA block is UNBYPASSED (= on) you can hear the feed from the Axe AMP, but not from the real Amp? But You can, when hitting in the edit MENU OF TMA the X parameter? So, it seems, as if the signal for just reference come only to Headphone, if TMA "reads" the signal (= pressing X). And local signal don`t need that? Vice Versa: If TMA is BYPASSED, signals go through - both Amps can be heard. Did i understand you correct???????

- Synth Block: Why want feeding a signal back? back to where? The Synth block should generate an otput signal itself. In fact NOT the guitar should serve a signal, the SYNTH Block itself should! Can you get out the synth block a sine or pink noise without playing guitar (=guitaris unplugged) ? Please, this is important to me to know! When i understand Cliff correct, the synth block should can do that! So, after tweaking the amps by ear with gutiar signal, the SYNTH BLOCK should give the audio signal from its voice generator to feed the TM block eg. both amps with signal. Please try that!

Last but not least: Please upload a correct working Template, that we can share and i can take a look into.

And Please: Post your A/B comparison on Soundcloud or something like that. I would appreciate!

Am i correct, you have (and you should in this example) played and heard your guitar always through the cab sim Block - both Amps (the sim and the real one) goes through the CAB at the end of the signal chain ... this confirms identical CABs for valide A/B test just of the preamp, right?!

Looking forward to your answer ..... !!!!

 

[Morphosis]

DON or anybody else: A German guy confirmed, that the synth blocks third voice generate a signal out of itself without guitar the sine sweep, when paramter TRACK = OFF!!!! This change and also the change of the reference Input in the TMA (from ROW2 / Left -> to Input 2 / left) is done and included in template v3, you`ll find attached!

Can you match now with only a sine test tone from the synth block? In fact match the amps without need a guitar (after find out settings with guitar of course) ????

 

[Morphosis]

don, a birdie told me: the 3rd voice in the synth block must have the setting TRACK = OFF. This will do the trick, that the sinesweep (our test signal for matching) is send by the synth block itself without using guitars!!!! This and the corrected setting in the TM Block for reference routing (INPUT2 / LEFT) instead of (ROW2/LEFT) ist fixed in the new template v3 ... please confirm, if that work!!!!!!

 

[symphx]

wow I think u guys are on to something. I am sure this is what Cliff was suggesting regarding a tutorial on "profiling". I am keeping a watchful eye. Thanks.

 

[Morphosis]

wow I think u guys are on to something. I am sure this is what Cliff was suggesting regarding a tutorial on "profiling". I am keeping a watchful eye. Thanks.

Yep, ... in my opinion we got it now with template v3, but i have to wait on confirmation from don, except you will shortly load the preset in your axe II, UNBYPASS the synth block, take care 3rd voice frequency is locked to LFO, TRACK = OFF and you can hear the sine sweep coming from the block, latest if TMA BLOCK is BYPASSED ....

wether you`ll want to match a real amp direct OR with miced Cab, you have to put the Cab block in the routing, both Amps feed, or just only for the AxeFX Amp ....

Oh my god, why i`m doing that? I must be the X-NERD. Just not have an Axe II ...... i only dream about it ....

 

[year2525]

Hi guys, been reading this thread and got time to test this tonight and tomorrow (actually, I gotta have this working until tomorrow evening as I'd like to show it to a friend who's visiting then).

I posted on the German board, Morphosis. Thanks for your help.

I can post in here aswell, to shorten things.

 

[Morphosis]

Hi guys, been reading this thread and got time to test this tonight and tomorrow (actually, I gotta have this working until tomorrow evening as I'd like to show it to a friend who's visiting then).

I posted on the German board, Morphosis. Thanks for your help.

I can post in here aswell, to shorten things.

Jan? Bitte nochmal ganz kurz im Musiker Board antworten, DANKE!

 

[year2525]

Jan? Bitte nochmal ganz kurz im Musiker Board antworten, DANKE!

Ich verkabele gerade nochmal alles, um sicher zu sein und antworte dann drüben!

EDIT: Done

 

[Morphosis]

Ich verkabele gerade nochmal alles, um sicher zu sein und antworte dann drüben!

Many thanks for confirmation!!!!! I will now write a tutorial with pictures and step-by-step manual and make this as PDF with attached Template for everybody!

 

[Don7v]

Ooops! I missed the v3 template about the SYNTH block BUT......I got a very nice tone matched ENGL Steve Morse's preamp here!! Real deal!! Even without the SYNTH block it sounds like....well....like ENGL Steve Morse!!!!

Ok here we go:

- the mixer block is obsolete yes. I replaced it with a shunt, then put energyball balance to C and the same for the FX loop as C. It helps me more to listen carefully and focus to the detail of what Im hearing so I can generate a similar sound. Others might prefer the left/right and play them together!

-Yes I switched to INPUT 2 and it worked. It gets the preamp's signal (real amp)! Logic says that since the FX block is in row1 it will read THAT instead but it doesnt. It could be done I believe but since I wanted to catch the preamp and knowing the preamp is going to input 2L I switched to that. So, NO sound from row 1 whatsoever (hehe).

- No. When you switch the TMA to listen to input 2 you get no sound still. But when you bypass it you get THE sound. So I make similar tones and levels with the TMA bypassed and when I am ready I unbypass it. With the drawback you cant hear the FX Loop nor the energyball. No worries, because you have all set it up already. So then, then I play and the curves in ref and local charts are veeery healthy!! and similar already!! That's a good sign right there! To sum it up you play the refrnece and local tone with no sound but you can see the curve forming ("vibrating") and it responds perfectly. Like any other general tone match. Needless to say that the power amp section of the real amp is not needed since only the changes I made to knobs of real amp (i.e. its preamp section) responded and I was setting the level of each channel by its volume (i.e preamp volume).

-Even when I have played both (energyball and real amp) and then disconnected the guitar I got no noise from the synth block. I dont know how the SYNTH block is supposed to be working apart from what you have described in this thread. So maybe I couldnt get any sound because Im a noobe when it comes to SYNTH block.

A correct working template is what you've made already!! Your template can serve its purpose as I described above. What you CANT do with it is to have everything un-bypassed (the TMA as well) and have sound through the head phones. When you bypass the TMA block you get sound whatever combination youtry: both amps play together and separately, together with the SYNTH block either on or off.

The only thing that found a little more convinient, after trying all you said, was to rearrange the template preset abit. I simply put in row two the energy ball, the TMA block and the cab bypassed. On the first row I loaded the FX loop and left it there. Every time I needed to check the sound of the real amp I brought the FX loop down to row 2 and energyball up to row 1 and disconnect it of course. I did that because when I had the amps separated (as in your template) I was hearing, say the energy ball's distortion along with clean sound ringing. The same stands for the real amp. But when I put them n the same row the clean sound disappeared. I was afraid that the TMA refernce might catch the clean signal along with the distorted.

 

[Morphosis]

@ Don7v: Thank you that much! With your information and the german guy "year2525" i think i have a more perfect version, where you can easily decide if you want both routings on both monitors or left/right seperate. Also Did you try TRACK = OFF on Voice 3 in the synth block? year2525 has confirmed that this works!

Check out the PDF TUTORIAL, perhaps you can participate whatever ... !!!!


Here we go: PDF TUTORIAL + Preset template. Confirmed by axeII owners. It works!
http://forum.fractalaudio.com/axe-f...tching-sinesweep-b-comparison.html#post667659