Amp in the Room?

[Patzag]

Mr Chase took the static amp model approach and blew it away with the Axe FX. He modeled every component until the AMP was Truer than true and virtually indistinguishable from the original.

Doing this with a cabinet, speaker and mic combination would probably take up as much CPU as the amp modeling. Would the benefits be worth it? Maybe Cliff could join in an let us know. This might be the Axe FX 4 with full cabinet modeling which does away with IRs and can reproduce any speaker(s) in any cab of any material with any mic at any distance with or without room interaction.

Whenever this shows up, I'll be ready to enjoy it.

 

[Stratoblaster]

Yeah this pattern looks a lot like an impedance curve of a guitar speaker... Only less spikey on the low resonant frequency.


I did a very little reading on the subject just now but it triggers a lot of very stupid noob questions...

Here are some:

1.The boosted 125 hz is close to the low resonant frequency (LRF) of a real cab (80~120Hz range I believe for 4x12). So is it save to say that a boosted LRF and High Resonant Frequencies makes it sound more like a cab in the room?

2. Would it help if the Low resonant frequency (LRF) of the amp block in this case would also be set to 125 Hz like you would do when matching a real cabs LRF in conjunction with the axe-fx and a solid state amp?

3. Why not boosting the 125Hz a lot more with a smaller range to mimic the impedance curve more?

4. Can you get faster distortion on the low resonant frequency or is this already built in....? (I believe at the resonant frequencies an amp/speaker also distorts more easily!?)

5. Besides speaker IRs, are there cab IRs (of the cab, not speakers), with reported low and high resonant frequencies so you can match this in your amp block and use it side by side with a speaker IR, so it farts out a bit more at those resonant frequencies?

It's very interesting stuff because I really like the amp in the room thing.
So I really love the fact that Fractal Audio is still trying to get it! Thx!

I think experimentation and using your ears is the way to go here...there are no best practices regarding this stuff. It's fun to explore and break some new ground in regards to cab/speaker emulation.

 

[bke]

Mr Chase took the static amp model approach and blew it away with the Axe FX. He modeled every component until the AMP was Truer than true and virtually indistinguishable from the original.

Doing this with a cabinet, speaker and mic combination would probably take up as much CPU as the amp modeling. Would the benefits be worth it? Maybe Cliff could join in an let us know. This might be the Axe FX 4 with full cabinet modeling which does away with IRs and can reproduce any speaker(s) in any cab of any material with any mic at any distance with or without room interaction.

Whenever this shows up, I'll be ready to enjoy it.

I dunno, i kinda hope Mr Chase put all that power into the III because he had a decent idea what the roadmap was and that he had great idea's on how to use that power. For me, i struggle to create patches that use over 50% of the CPU (although they aren't massively complicated;-) i wouldn't write off the power of the III quite so soon!

 

[666was999]

AFAIK there is only one ADSR-curve in IRs, there is not a separate curve for each frequency, right? And I don't know how it comes down to one curve, is it based on weighted values?
So if one wanted to improve IRs it was maybe worth a try to add some more bands of curves. So that a slower bass behavior of a cab or alike gets part of the IR.
But maybe it wouldn't make much of a difference, who knows.

 

[antcarrier]

Hasn't @antcarrier?

This is true!

AFAIK there is only one ADSR-curve in IRs, there is not a separate curve for each frequency, right? And I don't know how it comes down to one curve, is it based on weighted values?

IRs do have different decay characteristics at different frequencies. This is why IRs are so effective as reverbs, and why you look at reverb IRs using waterfall plots rather than ordinary freqency response plots.

 

[Shockwave603]

Try this:
Make a patch with no cab block.
After the amp put a Filter block. Reset to make sure all parameters are at default values.
Set the type to Lowpass.
Set the Order to 4th.
Set the Freq to ~5000.
Set the High Cut Freq to ~5000.

Adjust the Freq and High Cut Freq to taste. For more aggressive tones increase both to 6000 or so. For warmer tones decrease both to 4000 or so.

Now, to add some "character" put a Graphic EQ or Parametric EQ block after (or before) the Filter block. Boost 125 Hz a little. Play around with some of the midrange and upper midrange bands to change the character of the tone. This is what I used:
31: 0.0
63 Hz: 0.6
125 Hz: 4.57
250 Hz: 0.25
500: 0.0
1K: -5.0
2K: -2.27
4K: 1.95
8K: -1.0
16K: -5.77

The reasoning behind this is that there is no such thing as a "flat" speaker. All speakers, even really expensive monitors have peaks and dips in the response. That's why they all sound different. The primary thing a guitar speaker does is roll off the highs aggressively at somewhere between 4K and 6K Hz. The Filter block replicates the rolloff but lets the natural response of the speaker come through.

Are these settings something I would use with an FRFR setup? Or is it geared towards improving power amp + guitar cab? I am looking to improve the latter

 

[Nahtanis]

Are these settings something I would use with an FRFR setup? Or is it geared towards improving power amp + guitar cab? I am looking to improve the latter

We use a variant of this with our Matrix Power Amp + Marshal Cab setup. Works great and is easily tweakable for different setups.

 

[luke]

The irony of having a device that has hundreds of cab IR slots, and having thousands of IR’s to choose from whose sole purpose is to represent the mic’d cabinet, when apparently all we needed was a hi-cut and some EQ...

The original objective of the Axe Fx has moving towards "amp in the room" since its inception. It is what many customers are asking for and its their money that dictates the terms going forward.

 

[yeky83]

Are these settings something I would use with an FRFR setup? Or is it geared towards improving power amp + guitar cab? I am looking to improve the latter

Those settings were meant for FRFR setups.

But there's no reason you can't use EQ to tweak the sound with your guitar cab, try it out.

 

[Randalljax]

We use a variant of this with our Matrix Power Amp + Marshal Cab setup. Works great and is easily tweakable for different setups.

Hey There
Maybe you can help the man in the above thread who says his axe through matrix into Marshall sounds like crap
None of us that gave suggestions helped since you both have the same setup perhaps you have sone ideas

 

[Tommy Tempest]

Hey There
Maybe you can help the man in the above thread who says his axe through matrix into Marshall sounds like crap
None of us that gave suggestions helped since you both have the same setup perhaps you have sone ideas

I just posted this thread link

 

[bdrepko]

Hey There
Maybe you can help the man in the above thread who says his axe through matrix into Marshall sounds like crap
None of us that gave suggestions helped since you both have the same setup perhaps you have sone ideas

I wonder if he really has speaker sims turned off.

 

[Paulg2uk]

I wonder if he really has speaker sims turned off.

I was thinking the same as well.

 

[Perdikament]

This is kind of interesting. I've recently been rolling off hi freqs after the cab block in the 4.5 k range when going from my rhythm sound to lead sound in lieu of switching to a different ir.

One thing I've been searching for and no luck so far is some software to be able to view AND EDIT the freq response of irs. If we could see the response peaks and troughs in hi res and edit them it seems like it would be a lot easier to not only understand what is happening but also get your sound dialed faster

The more I listen and play I have become thoroughly convinced that I, (along with most people I believe) are not setting the High Cut low enough. I used to always set it around 7-8k & that’s way too high for FRFR. I’m hearing much more realistic and easier to dial in and useable Treble & Presence controls with a High Cut set anywhere between as low as 4.5/4.7 - 6k depending on the IR & to some degree the amp.

 

[Nahtanis]

Hey There
Maybe you can help the man in the above thread who says his axe through matrix into Marshall sounds like crap
None of us that gave suggestions helped since you both have the same setup perhaps you have sone ideas

Good idea. I will send him the preset with the adjusted eq/peq. I tweaked low cut and the EQ and it works fantastic on every preset that I run through the Marshall 1960a.

 

[666was999]

The more I listen and play I have become thoroughly convinced that I, (along with most people I believe) are not setting the High Cut low enough. I used to always set it around 7-8k & that’s way too high for FRFR. I’m hearing much more realistic and easier to dial in and useable Treble & Presence controls with a High Cut set anywhere between as low as 4.5/4.7 - 6k depending on the IR & to some degree the amp.

What are your FRFR speakers?

Many systems have hyped highs, so you set the highcut low to compensate for that. Using that same preset then for studio momitors or a PA, it sounds like through a blanket.
If a certain monitor is the problem I'd change the upper bands in the global eq to get it right.
But when highs are too much everywere, then the problem lies in the preset and cut freq is the right fix.

Besides that mids that seem a bit too much boosted at home, make the guitar sit oerfect in the mix. Needed while to get that. It costs you quite an effort to turn mids more up than it seems right, but that's how amps cut through on stage.

 

[Perdikament]

What are your FRFR speakers?

Many systems have hyped highs, so you set the highcut low to compensate for that. Using that same preset then for studio momitors or a PA, it sounds like through a blanket.
If a certain monitor is the problem I'd change the upper bands in the global eq to get it right.
But when highs are too much everywere, then the problem lies in the preset and cut freq is the right fix.

Besides that mids that seem a bit too much boosted at home, make the guitar sit oerfect in the mix. Needed while to get that. It costs you quite an effort to turn mids more up than it seems right, but that's how amps cut through on stage.

It’s across a multitude of FRFR gear.. not just one isolated instance or solution. I’m talking in general terms, via; Studio Monitors, Headphones, PA speakers.. and multiples of each as well. I get what you’re saying though, you would have to be mindful when creating patches say at home on your monitors & then expecting the same sound through a P.A. (especially one that is not your own that you are not familiar with.) The point I’m trying to make is, especially when it comes to the relationship between the Treble & Presence controls & High Cut, is they become much more useable (IMO) with a properly set high cut, which is lower than I had thought & what I believe most people think.

 

[Chris Hurley]

I was trying out some of the new far field IRs that have been shared and stumbled onto an IR on my Axe-FX called "EQ". When I realized what it was, it reminded me about this thread.

I continue to be surprised that this is giving usable sounds.

I'm wondering if this could eventually produce recipes for getting the sounds of various cab styles with this approach. Yes, of course we have a zillion IRs that can be used and this doesn't replace that- its just another exercise.

 

[Eliju]

I’ve personally never had an issue or missed any “amp in the room” sound. A major component of that sound is volume, with your sound bouncing off of anything for that spatial feeling. And in tests people do leave that part out, wanting the “amp in a room” 3D feeling out of headphones (or even in one side only headphone in one case).

A cool concept either way.

I usually dial in a little room in the speaker block if I’m using headphones. Live I don’t miss it at all

 

[Chris Hurley]

When you have convinced yourself that you don't need or want AIR, you're not going to care about things that might get AIR. I think people are missing out on this thread as a result.

I worked with this some more tonight and had about the most fun I've ever had with an FRFR cabinet.

If you haven't given this a shot, you might be missing out, even if you're totally happy with your current IR situation. I still can't believe how good this is working.