Amp in a Room vs Studio Recorded Tones

[BBN]

Amp in the room denotes direct and accurate (unfiltered) experience with a real cab in an actual room. If you're running IR's through a real cab, yes, you are technically listening to an 'amp in the room', however if amps and cabs were art, it would be about as much a direct and accurate representation as viewing the Mona Lisa through rose colored glasses. While you might like the effect, it doesn't conform to common usage.

How is a Cab already not a rose colored pair of glasses? It has it's own coloration. It colors the clean and pure signal coming out of my tube head. (in a way that people consider favorable).
Shooting an IR adding more coloration may be 'different', but it's still similar in the sense that it's adding coloration to a signal.
I just think 'amp in the room' is the wrong way to describe the difference.

 

[Jason Scott]

That doesn't even make any sense

It does if you know what common linguistic usage means.

 

[Jason Scott]

How is a Cab already not a rose colored pair of glasses?

Well, the Mona Lisa has its own colors too, but are you really seeing an accurate representation of them when viewed through colored lenses?

it's still similar in the sense that it's adding coloration to a signal.

If you like the effect, great, but again, you're no more hearing an accurate representation of the speaker than you are an accurate representation of the Mona Lisa when viewing it through colored lenses. When people talk about 'amp in the room', they're talking about hearing and feeling the sound of a speaker directly and in person rather than hearing and feeling it through an extra set of filters. Like I said, if you like the sound of an IR through a cab, great, but that's obviously not what the vast majority of people are referring to when they use the term.

I just think 'amp in the room' is the wrong way to describe the difference.

You can call it whatever you want, but that's the vehicle people have chosen to convey the aforementioned idea.

 

[lqdsnddist]

How many people ever really hear an accurate representation of that actual cab in a given room though ?? For that matter, two different people are likely to have different hearing thresholds, so what one person hears can be different than what someone right next to them might hear if their thresholds are different (Doctor of Audiology for my day job, so I see plenty of variability in hearing thresholds lol)

I've never been in the studio with Gilmour, Hendrix et al., but I've always really enjoyed their tones. I've never not enjoyed listening to a Gilmour solo because I thought to myself "I'm not hearing his actual amp, I'm hearing his amp mic'd through a console, and then played back on my own monitoring equipment, which in my car, verses on my phone, verses my studio monitors all are going to affect the tone. But you know what ?? It sounds amazing each and every time still

Go find a great player and its going to sound good if they are playing through a cab or a FRFR or even a recorded clip on an iPhone. If Larry Mitchell came over and played my III through my CRL's I think it would be a pretty sweet tone, and far better than anything I ever played through it.

Too many guys (TGP especially) have an excuse for why their aren't better guitarist, and its always blaming the gear, because it doesn't "inspire" them to play their best, or the tonal nuance is slightly lacking, and while if everything was perfect we'd hear these monster chops, instead we get some poor chord voicing and bad blues leads, always with the disclaimer that they "weren't trying" and just wanted to show off the tone, or a new guitar etc.

In some ways, its a gift and curse for guitarist of a certain age, myself included, in that we've got the means to buy whatever we want, but that day job and lifestyle that affords us these great toys also means we don't really practice much, going days without touching the guitar because the kids got a soccer game one night etc. So then here we are, with vintage strats, custom PRS's, Axe III"s etc, but do we have the chops ? Usually not, so then why does John Mayer's noodling on a 40 minute headstock defense video clip sound better than anything we ever played ?? Must be the gear....

As i type this I've got an ax8 sitting on top of my III, with two CRL's hooked up, but am I playing it ?? Nope, I'm on the internet talking about gear..... Why is that ? Maybe its because my III and CRL's just cant get amp in room, and I'm just not inspiring. Maybe I need to go buy another tube amp (again) and then when I get that next week I'm suddenly going to live, sleep and breathe guitar, and I'll become a rock god, blowing away all my idols.... yeah that its... This III and CLR just doesn't cut it....sounds fake. Got to be the gear.... No way there are guys out there with III's and FRFR speakers doing anything good right ??

 

[Birdy]

How many people ever really hear an accurate representation of that actual cab in a given room though ?? For that matter, two different people are likely to have different hearing thresholds, so what one person hears can be different than what someone right next to them might hear if their thresholds are different (Doctor of Audiology for my day job, so I see plenty of variability in hearing thresholds lol)

I've never been in the studio with Gilmour, Hendrix et al., but I've always really enjoyed their tones. I've never not enjoyed listening to a Gilmour solo because I thought to myself "I'm not hearing his actual amp, I'm hearing his amp mic'd through a console, and then played back on my own monitoring equipment, which in my car, verses on my phone, verses my studio monitors all are going to affect the tone. But you know what ?? It sounds amazing each and every time still

Go find a great player and its going to sound good if they are playing through a cab or a FRFR or even a recorded clip on an iPhone. If Larry Mitchell came over and played my III through my CRL's I think it would be a pretty sweet tone, and far better than anything I ever played through it.

Too many guys (TGP especially) have an excuse for why their aren't better guitarist, and its always blaming the gear, because it doesn't "inspire" them to play their best, or the tonal nuance is slightly lacking, and while if everything was perfect we'd hear these monster chops, instead we get some poor chord voicing and bad blues leads, always with the disclaimer that they "weren't trying" and just wanted to show off the tone, or a new guitar etc.

In some ways, its a gift and curse for guitarist of a certain age, myself included, in that we've got the means to buy whatever we want, but that day job and lifestyle that affords us these great toys also means we don't really practice much, going days without touching the guitar because the kids got a soccer game one night etc. So then here we are, with vintage strats, custom PRS's, Axe III"s etc, but do we have the chops ? Usually not, so then why does John Mayer's noodling on a 40 minute headstock defense video clip sound better than anything we ever played ?? Must be the gear....

As i type this I've got an ax8 sitting on top of my III, with two CRL's hooked up, but am I playing it ?? Nope, I'm on the internet talking about gear..... Why is that ? Maybe its because my III and CRL's just cant get amp in room, and I'm just not inspiring. Maybe I need to go buy another tube amp (again) and then when I get that next week I'm suddenly going to live, sleep and breathe guitar, and I'll become a rock god, blowing away all my idols.... yeah that its... This III and CLR just doesn't cut it....sounds fake. Got to be the gear.... No way there are guys out there with III's and FRFR speakers doing anything good right ??

Damn bruh...

 

[Jason Scott]

How many people ever really hear an accurate representation of that actual cab in a given room though ??

Well, despite different levels of visual acuity and various lighting conditions, there's still a difference between viewing and experiencing a piece of art directly vs. viewing it on TV or over the internet.

I've never been in the studio with Gilmour, Hendrix et al., but I've always really enjoyed their tones. I've never not enjoyed listening to a Gilmour solo because I thought to myself "I'm not hearing his actual amp, I'm hearing his amp mic'd through a console, and then played back on my own monitoring equipment, which in my car, verses on my phone, verses my studio monitors all are going to affect the tone. But you know what ?? It sounds amazing each and every time still

It's not a matter of preference. Obviously there's a difference between hearing a recording of Gilmour and experiencing his playing live and in person(ie. amp in the room). I doubt anyone would confuse the two.

 

[Perdikament]

How many people have actually ever heard Gilmour play an amp in a room?
Not many, a few people when he records, while they’re setting up the mics and dialing in the amp(s). And his band mates during rehearsals a long time ago.
Certainly you are not confusing his live concert tone with amp in the room tone, cause that is definitely not amp in the room. That is IR/FRFR Tone. It’s a mic’d Cab thru a FRFR System .

 

[Brucegregori]

How many people ever really hear an accurate representation of that actual cab in a given room though ?? For that matter, two different people are likely to have different hearing thresholds, so what one person hears can be different than what someone right next to them might hear if their thresholds are different (Doctor of Audiology for my day job, so I see plenty of variability in hearing thresholds lol)

I've never been in the studio with Gilmour, Hendrix et al., but I've always really enjoyed their tones. I've never not enjoyed listening to a Gilmour solo because I thought to myself "I'm not hearing his actual amp, I'm hearing his amp mic'd through a console, and then played back on my own monitoring equipment, which in my car, verses on my phone, verses my studio monitors all are going to affect the tone. But you know what ?? It sounds amazing each and every time still

Go find a great player and its going to sound good if they are playing through a cab or a FRFR or even a recorded clip on an iPhone. If Larry Mitchell came over and played my III through my CRL's I think it would be a pretty sweet tone, and far better than anything I ever played through it.

Too many guys (TGP especially) have an excuse for why their aren't better guitarist, and its always blaming the gear, because it doesn't "inspire" them to play their best, or the tonal nuance is slightly lacking, and while if everything was perfect we'd hear these monster chops, instead we get some poor chord voicing and bad blues leads, always with the disclaimer that they "weren't trying" and just wanted to show off the tone, or a new guitar etc.

In some ways, its a gift and curse for guitarist of a certain age, myself included, in that we've got the means to buy whatever we want, but that day job and lifestyle that affords us these great toys also means we don't really practice much, going days without touching the guitar because the kids got a soccer game one night etc. So then here we are, with vintage strats, custom PRS's, Axe III"s etc, but do we have the chops ? Usually not, so then why does John Mayer's noodling on a 40 minute headstock defense video clip sound better than anything we ever played ?? Must be the gear....

As i type this I've got an ax8 sitting on top of my III, with two CRL's hooked up, but am I playing it ?? Nope, I'm on the internet talking about gear..... Why is that ? Maybe its because my III and CRL's just cant get amp in room, and I'm just not inspiring. Maybe I need to go buy another tube amp (again) and then when I get that next week I'm suddenly going to live, sleep and breathe guitar, and I'll become a rock god, blowing away all my idols.... yeah that its... This III and CLR just doesn't cut it....sounds fake. Got to be the gear.... No way there are guys out there with III's and FRFR speakers doing anything good right ??

Its all in the fingers....300 frankenstrat and beat up plexi...that's how van halen did it.

 

[unix-guy]

How many people have actually ever heard Gilmour play an amp in a room?
Not many, a few people when he records, while they’re setting up the mics and dialing in the amp(s). And his band mates during rehearsals a long time ago.
Certainly you are not confusing his live concert tone with amp in the room tone, cause that is definitely not amp in the room. That is IR/FRFR Tone. It’s a mic’d Cab thru a FRFR System .

Yes... This. Exactly!

And even his band mates would have each heard it differently based on their relative location to the speakers.

 

[Billbill]

How many people have actually ever heard Gilmour play an amp in a room?
Not many, a few people when he records, while they’re setting up the mics and dialing in the amp(s). And his band mates during rehearsals a long time ago.
Certainly you are not confusing his live concert tone with amp in the room tone, cause that is definitely not amp in the room. That is IR/FRFR Tone. It’s a mic’d Cab thru a FRFR System .

I have heard him! He used an Ultra with the dead 9V pignose IR. Sounded atrocious

 

[Guitarus Rex]

Damn, Birdy... Look what you've done. Ha!

Been following this thread for days and it's been a lot of "less filling / tastes great" back & forth. Pretty entertaining stuff.

So, I've been sitting here trying to figure out what it is that puts me on the amp-in-the-room (AITR) side. The counter-points all make sense to me, yet there is still something about AITR. The only thing I can come up with is that I am an old geezer (hence the dino avatar) and the vast majority of my "golden age" band practice, gigging and recreational playing was through a loud tube amp. (think: garage band days) We never mic'd amps or drums, no in-ears and our stage volume was loud. That's just the way it was done then (or it was how we did it...). So, that is the sound and feel that I am accustomed to. I've tried a variety of hook-ups and have been happiest with the Axe-Fx into two tube amp effects loop RETURNs. It still gives me what I have become accustomed to over the decades, with a TON of new options! I'm sure I can get the old school, dirty speaker, "rasp" without the "sizzle" through an FRFR set-up, but I haven't happened across a Friedman ASM or Atomic CLR yet to try it out. As a result, I'm still in the entrenched dogma of AITR glory. Saw Steven Wilson for Hand.Cannot.Erase tour and they were using mic'd tube combos and tube halfstacks in a small-ish club. Sounded huge!

Counter-point: Two years ago, I saw my first "local band" outdoor show where they used in-ears and had no amps on stage. I thought they sounded great - didn't even notice there were no amps until well into the show. Saw A Perfect Circle not long ago (Fractals) and it sounded just like the CD, crystal clear. Same with Def Leppard, no amps at all on stage - I think they went to Fractals as well. They actually had computer-generated graphics of amp stacks on their backdrop TV screens! Sound was fantastic; nailed the Hysteria-era chorus-ey tones and then whipped out the snotty, heavy mid-range Pete Willis-era, Gibson-straight-into-a-dimed-Marshall-Plexi tone (think: last fading note of "Bringin' on the Heartbreak") without missing a beat. The video on the FAS website of Metallica playing on the Howard Stern Show was the capper. Best mix of them playing live I've ever heard - not an amp in site, but there was a tell-tale green glowing screen on each of their rig racks.

Bottom line: You can make a strong case for both sides. Some will argue from the heart, others from science and still others from common sense. Tone has always been subjective. I feel like I have learned a LOT from the discussions. Gonna track down one of the FRFR rigs and try it. Thanks!

 

[Jason Scott]

Certainly you are not confusing his live concert tone with amp in the room tone, cause that is definitely not amp in the room. That is IR/FRFR Tone. It’s a mic’d Cab thru a FRFR System .

On that note, I don't know anyone who would confuse a recording of a live show with an actual, live concert. Amp in the room is about experiencing the direct sound of an amp in person rather than through a filter. It's the difference between touring China or Japan over the internet and physically being there, soaking up the sights and sounds first-hand.

 

[Jason Scott]

Damn, Birdie... Look what you've done. Ha!

Been following this thread for days and it's been a lot of "less filling / tastes great" back & forth. Pretty entertaining stuff.

So, I've been sitting here trying to figure out what it is that puts me on the amp-in-the-room (AITR) side. The counter-points all make sense to me, yet there is still something about AITR. The only thing I can come up with is that I am an old geezer (hence the dino avatar) and the vast majority of my "golden age" band practice, gigging and recreational playing was through a loud tube amp. (think: garage band days) We never mic'd amps or drums, no in-ears and our stage volume was loud. That's just the way it was done then (or it was how we did it...). So, that is the sound and feel that I am accustomed to. I've tried a variety of hook-ups and have been happiest with the Axe-Fx into two tube amp effects loop RETURNs. It still gives me what I have become accustomed to over the decades, with a TON of new options! I'm sure I can get the old school, dirty speaker, "rasp" without the "sizzle" through an FRFR set-up, but I haven't happened across a Friedman ASM or Atomic CLR yet to try it out. As a result, I'm still in the entrenched dogma of AITR glory. Saw Steven Wilson for Hand.Cannot.Erase tour and they were using mic'd tube combos and tube halfstacks in a small-ish club. Sounded huge!

Capture an IR of a Marshall 4x12 cab and use that in conjunction with your choice of FRFR. Set the Marshall 4x12 next to the FRFR and listen to the difference.

 

[Guitarus Rex]

Capture an IR of a Marshall 4x12 cab and use that in conjunction with your choice of FRFR. Set the Marshall 4x12 next to the FRFR and listen to the difference.

Great idea, that's EXACTLY what I'm gonna do! Can run the 3-pins and 1/4" at the same time. I watched a YouTube video of a guy with a Helix ("Archetype" model) and PRS Archon head, he was A/B-ing them through a Friedman ASM-12, a 4x12 cab and a FOH PA speaker. All sounded wildly different, but you have no real idea of how evenly matched the settings were for his comparison, mic placement, etc.

It's fun to read all the banter in the forum. But in the long run, these arguments don't really matter so much to me. ALL of it sounds pretty freaking great. I haven't been able to coax a crappy sound out of my Fractal yet, no matter the rig configuration. Some days, I prefer the headphone sound, other days it's the tube amp effects loop return or the solid state power amp thru the 4x12. However, I am getting anxious to try one of those designed-for-modeler FRFR rigs after all of this chatter.

 

[BBN]

On that note, I don't know anyone who would confuse a recording of a live show with an actual, live concert. Amp in the room is about experiencing the direct sound of an amp in person rather than through a filter.

But it is going though a filter. The mic on his cab, the preamp on the mixer, the FRFR speakers that you are listening to in the audience.
It IS exactly FRFR. You are listening to it through rose colored glasses.
I agree....live is a different experience than a recording....and when you are enjoying the live show, then you are enjoying FRFR.
(to quote @unix-guy ...let that sink in).

Unless you have watched every concert from the stage?

 

[Rick]

If it feels good, play it...

 

[fractalz]

That being said, the cab simulation in the Axe FX is perfect. I can't really imagine how it could be better, except that some things that happen to real amps naturally with cabs, have to be dialed in manually in the axe FX. If they are not dialed in correctly, they don't give authentic results.

I’m curious to know your manual tweaks.

 

[Jason Scott]

But it is going though a filter. The mic on his cab, the preamp on the mixer, the FRFR speakers that you are listening to in the audience. It IS exactly FRFR. You are listening to it through rose colored glasses.

Yes, but I'm not suggesting that the sound of guitars at a live show sound the same as sitting in a room with an amp and cab. I'm suggesting that, just as there's a difference between listening to a recording of a live show and sitting in the audience at one, there's a difference between listening to, for instance, an IR of a Marshall 4x12 through an FRFR and playing through that same 4x12 directly. If you doubt this, simply capture an IR of a Marshall 4x12 and do a side-by-side comparison of the FRFR with IR and the actual Marshall 4x12.

I mean, if your definition of amp in the room revolves around playing guitar through any speaker, then anything goes. A $12 AmazonBasic computer speaker would qualify, at which point the term becomes meaningless, but that's not what people are referring to.

 

[Billbill]

But it is going though a filter. The mic on his cab, the preamp on the mixer, the FRFR speakers that you are listening to in the audience.
It IS exactly FRFR. You are listening to it through rose colored glasses.
I agree....live is a different experience than a recording....and when you are enjoying the live show, then you are enjoying FRFR.
(to quote @unix-guy ...let that sink in).

Unless you have watched every concert from the stage?

And if you're running "real" cabs with cab sims on then sending it FOH.....

 

[Billbill]

... it'll still sound good because its coming from a fn AxeFx!!