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Amp in a Room vs Studio Recorded Tones

Jason Scott

Forum Addict
As stated before somewhere, to make the sound of axefx on stage as good (individual taste) as real amp takes a lot of efforts and times.
It can be just as easy to sound and feel like it does when using a real cab on stage with the Axe FX if you simply go through a power amp into a real cab.

As stated before, maybe IR is not the right tool to reproduce the amp in the room feel?
It's not. IR's, by their nature, merely reproduce whatever slice of an amp a microphone hears. Even mics with a relatively flat response are limited by their directionality to an extent.
 
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Jason Scott

Forum Addict
There exist FF IRs and Room IRs. Both are different, one is with roomy sound, the other one is dry. When people talk about FF IRs I hope they all mean the dry ones, the others are usually named room mic and alike.
I've never heard a recording of a cab using a flat response mic that I think anyone would confuse with the experience of actually listening to an amp and cab first-hand in a room. In my experience, even trying to reproduce the sound of a recording of an amp and cab that isn't close mic'd is extremely difficult using a combination of standard IR's combined with room IR's.
 

Smilzo

Forum Addict
In theory, an IR made with a neutral mic should sound like pressing your head to the micing position - which you would not do. The problem is that the amp in the room sound is always reliant on the room itself, where the speaker is positioned in it and where you as a listener are standing.

Line6's brand new PowerCab tries to solves this by what I am guessing applying a suitable tone match tuned to the speaker in the PowerCab so it can simulate a 1x12 with different speakers. The rest is up to the actual room. Will be interesting to hear how it fares, as a concept it sounds promising because using a poweramp and real guitar cabs locks you into 1 or 2 different cabs which don't sound the best for all amp models.
Yes, it is what I guess could be a doable way... I remember discussing with Cliff about an "inverse-IR" to revert a cab response, say we have a real V30, a GB IR... if we apply the IR to V30 the result will be different than a GB! The idea was to neutralize the character of the V30 (inverse IR) and then apply the GB. From a mathematical point I remeber some kinf of zeros problem... so not doable.
I wish fractal build a cab with known speaker and apply the correction to sould almost-as-real-xxx-speaker.

There exist FF IRs and Room IRs. Both are different, one is with roomy sound, the other one is dry. When people talk about FF IRs I hope they all mean the dry ones, the others are usually named room mic and alike.
I tried FF IR. I don't like them. The room (reflection) should be modeled in the reverb or dedicated room algo.
 

666was999

Forum Addict
I've never heard a recording of a cab using a flat response mic that I think anyone would confuse with the experience of actually listening to an amp and cab first-hand in a room. In my experience, even trying to reproduce the sound of a recording of an amp and cab that isn't close mic'd is extremely difficult using a combination of standard IR's combined with room IR's.
???
We are talking about how to get an AITR sound with an FRFR system. You talk about recordings. Or even recordings of an AITR sound? There's no point in that?
 

Jason Scott

Forum Addict
???
We are talking about how to get an AITR sound with an FRFR system. You talk about recordings. Or even recordings of an AITR sound? There's no point in that?
What do you think a recording of a guitar is? It's the sound of a mic'd amp, which is exactly what an IR produces.
 

666was999

Forum Addict
People here asked about how to get an AITR sound even though the whole thing isn't built for that, because it is built to produce a recording sound.

The solution to their question is not a recording sound.
 

lqdsnddist

Axe-Master
People here asked about how to get an AITR sound even though the whole thing isn't built for that, because it is built to produce a recording sound.

The solution to their question is not a recording sound.

The unit has the ability to disable the cab block, and/or power amp modeling, which lets users run into a real guitar cabinet and/or use any power amp they'd like. Its not built for any one specific thing, but rather can be utilized in a range of applications.
 

Muad'zin

Forum Addict
That´s the reason you need a real cab on stage in smaller venues. Otherwise is like hearing a live band with a recorded guitar
Considering that you need to have your amp miced up into a FOH system in order to have a decent live sound I fail to see the problem in that. Or do you mean just the amp blasting the audience without a mic? In which their mileage will vary depending on where they stand. In a rehearsal you can stand in your sweetspot, chances are the rest of your band will look at you with murder in their eyes why you are blasting them with excessive volume, ice pick highs or thumping lows. Why would that be any different for the audience. Amp in the room only sounds good at the sweetspot. Everywhere else, your mileage my vary.

I've always found it hilariously funny when bands at small venues ask for the audience to come closer. Maybe there is a good reason why they aren't. Maybe where they are standing is their sweetspot? Or maybe the volume up close is unbearable?
 

Jason Scott

Forum Addict
Considering that you need to have your amp miced up into a FOH system in order to have a decent live sound I fail to see the problem in that. Or do you mean just the amp blasting the audience without a mic? In which their mileage will vary depending on where they stand. In a rehearsal you can stand in your sweetspot, chances are the rest of your band will look at you with murder in their eyes why you are blasting them with excessive volume, ice pick highs or thumping lows. Why would that be any different for the audience. Amp in the room only sounds good at the sweetspot. Everywhere else, your mileage my vary.
It depends. I don't generally hang out at bars very often anymore, but the last dive bar I went to had a band whose amps weren't mic'd and they sounded fine to my ears, regardless whether I was standing at the bar or at our table. Of course, what I was hearing may not have been considered acceptable (or the sweet spot) to the guitarist, but it sounded okay to me and I suspect most of the audience wasn't obsessing about it.
 

Smilzo

Forum Addict
That´s the reason you need a real cab on stage in smaller venues. Otherwise is like hearing a live band with a recorded guitar
Considering that you need to have your amp miced up into a FOH system in order to have a decent live sound I fail to see the problem in that. Or do you mean just the amp blasting the audience without a mic? In which their mileage will vary depending on where they stand. In a rehearsal you can stand in your sweetspot, chances are the rest of your band will look at you with murder in their eyes why you are blasting them with excessive volume, ice pick highs or thumping lows. Why would that be any different for the audience. Amp in the room only sounds good at the sweetspot. Everywhere else, your mileage my vary.

I like V30 for lead sound, GB for crunch, P10 for clean, oval for retro sound... I can play some real cab & amps, but it's a pain in the ass to set up on stage... so I choose one cab as compromise. I like the versatility of a FRFR with IR, plus and extended dispersion... I know that the best fot PA is an IR, but I would like a amp-in-the-room feel with FRFR on stage, I am searching for the best of both world: the feel of an amp in the room, and the sound of a good recording.
 

Billbill

Forum Addict
I've found that if I bypass my combo amp's preamp by removing the FXL block, the IRs in the AxeFx don't do that muddy dark tone thing and actually sound great with cab sims! Some presets need that thick dark punch so the FXL stays in on those presets. An unconventional way of creating more options lol. Try it
 

NaN

New here
I don’t buy the explanations completely of why you can’t accomplish an amp in the room sound with frfr
Maybe it also has something to do with the modeling of the power amp section or something.

Here’s why.
I love the immediate direct low end thumb oomph of a 90/100 watt mesa mark series amp through a mesa 4x12...I love it with a real amp/cab in the room. But can someone explain to me why I can hear and feel the same characteristics when listening to palm muting stuff in “pull me under” from Dream theater at 1:17 playing loud through my studio monitors or headphones?
It is recorded so why doesn’t it sound/feel as flat like some of the high gain axe-fx iii example vids on youtube? Ouch! no hard feelings!

Well I’m hoping to hear this soon in an axe-fx iii vid cos I am on the waiting list allready and I am hoping to get that feel. Unfortunately, imho, it lacks in the vid of Cooper Carter who did an amazing job btw covering pull me under with the axe-fx iii.
 

Jason Scott

Forum Addict
I don’t buy the explanations completely of why you can’t accomplish an amp in the room sound with frfr
Maybe it also has something to do with the modeling of the power amp section or something.
It has nothing to do with the power amp. The reasons have been clearly explicated here. Whether you buy them or not is independent of their truth.

Here’s why.
I love the immediate direct low end thumb oomph of a 90/100 watt mesa mark series amp through a mesa 4x12...I love it with a real amp/cab in the room. But can someone explain to me why I can hear and feel the same characteristics when listening to palm muting stuff in “pull me under” from Dream theater at 1:17 playing loud through my studio monitors or headphones?
It is recorded so why doesn’t it sound/feel as flat like some of the high gain axe-fx iii example vids on youtube? Ouch! no hard feelings!
You can create low-end thump with EQ as well as other parameters in the Axe if that's what you want, but there's a lot more to the sound of an unmic'd cab than just low-end thump.
 
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StickMan

Veteran
I don’t buy the explanations completely of why you can’t accomplish an amp in the room sound with frfr
Maybe it also has something to do with the modeling of the power amp section or something.

Here’s why.
I love the immediate direct low end thumb oomph of a 90/100 watt mesa mark series amp through a mesa 4x12...I love it with a real amp/cab in the room. But can someone explain to me why I can hear and feel the same characteristics when listening to palm muting stuff in “pull me under” from Dream theater at 1:17 playing loud through my studio monitors or headphones?
It is recorded so why doesn’t it sound/feel as flat like some of the high gain axe-fx iii example vids on youtube? Ouch! no hard feelings!

Well I’m hoping to hear this soon in an axe-fx iii vid cos I am on the waiting list allready and I am hoping to get that feel. Unfortunately, imho, it lacks in the vid of Cooper Carter who did an amazing job btw covering pull me under with the axe-fx iii.
So just that we're clear here, what you're asking has nothing to do with "amp in the room", since you're citing a recorded tone as an example. The question of "how do I get this recorded tone?", is more well defined. Post your preset in a thread in the appropriate forum here, and someone will probably suggest some improvements.
 

NaN

New here
:)
So just that we're clear here, what you're asking has nothing to do with "amp in the room", since you're citing a recorded tone as an example. The question of "how do I get this recorded tone?", is more well defined. Post your preset in a thread in the appropriate forum here, and someone will probably suggest some improvements.
I think you are half right on that. I do want to know how to get his recorded tone. :)

Maybe I didn’t understand the thread correctly.... or maybe I do not understand the concept of frfr.
Or maybe I’m just... idk. Let me know.

I believe the question at the start of this thread was something like “ do you prefer the amp in the room sound ( till now I do) or the recorded studio sound?”, which I believe is the same as a mic’d amp!? Or is it the mixed sound? Anyhow it then goes on that you need an actual cab in the room to get that amp in the room sound/feel and that it is not possible in frfr... then explanations why ( I didn’t read them all )...

While I can understand what they are saying, it doesn’t matter so much to me because imho I think we can be closer to the amp in the room sound with frfr just because there are recordings that comes even closer in my ears than what I’ve heard on the axe-fx so far. (hopefully I’m wrong).

I think my best example for now will be the vid on YouTube where Petrucci showcases his jp-2c at he mesa boogie tone summit with doug west posted 24 jan. 2018 by mesa boogie. (The long version of 18 minutes)
Listen at 10:12. It’s sounding massive through my studio monitors playing loud. Like I am standing right next to it. I get the same vibe of having an actual amp in the room. I mean the same vibe I get of my boogies I played very loud through 4x12s the last 25 years.

Maybe it’s the amp and his explosive transformer with extremely fast attack and release or the amps extremely percussive midrange that makes it feel more like an amp in the room. Or maybe it is the way they mic’d it with a Sennheiser 421 and a Beyer Dynamic 160 on one side and a AER AR21 and a SM57 on the other cab and a stereo pair of Earthworks QTC-50 room mic’d blended in at 10% of the final mix... idk

My point is that fractalaudio must never give up trying to simulate the amp in the room sound to perfection till it is possible to hear it through a couple of monitors.
I refuse to believe there isn’t room for improvement and that we have to stick with restrictive (guitar) cabs to get that sound/feel. That’s all :cool:o_O:)
 

lqdsnddist

Axe-Master
I don’t get this latest line of discussion...

Guy is claiming how he loves the recorded tone of an amp, as it’s played back through his monitors, and thinks that sounds like an amp on the room (which is doesn’t) and wants the Axe to provide “better” recorded tones, because improved recorded tone equal more “amp in room” tone..... makes my head kind of hurt lol

Amp in room doesn’t sound like a recorded tone, and especially not with a loud 4x12 cab. Your never going to have the sound coming out a desktop monitor speaker sounding like a 4x12 in the same room. If you’ve ever played a 4x12 in your bedroom you know what a 4x12 sounds like/feels like lol. My mom used to complain that all the walls had cracks from mine after I’d crank it every day after school ages ago lol

Essentially what the latest poster wants isn’t amp in room, he wants to know how they mic’d the cab to get a great recorded guitar tone. That is a skill in itself. That is why certain engineers and producers make the big bucks, they know how to get a great guitar tone.

Usually it’s a blend of several mics, proper eq, some insert effects on the board which are usually high end, and then the knowledge to do it all.

Can’t just stick a mic in front of cab and think it’s going to sound like a hit record, and a cab in the room also doesn’t sound like a hit record.

It’s the difference between studio and live tones. So many bands sound nothing like the album live, though with FAS a lot are getting live tones a lot closer to studio
 

NaN

New here
I don’t get this latest line of discussion...

Essentially what the latest poster wants isn’t amp in room, he wants to know how they mic’d the cab to get a great recorded guitar tone. That is a skill in itself. That is why certain engineers and producers make the big bucks, they know how to get a great guitar tone.
It feels I can’t make myself clear on this point or maybe you’re right. Lol! Thx for the input anyway!

Amp in room doesn’t sound like a recorded tone, and especially not with a loud 4x12 cab. Your never going to have the sound coming out a desktop monitor speaker sounding like a 4x12 in the same room. If you’ve ever played a 4x12 in your bedroom you know what a 4x12 sounds like/feels like lol. My mom used to complain that all the walls had cracks from mine after I’d crank it every day after school ages ago lol
Well I have a mesa mark V 90w and play it through a 4x12 recto cab in my livingroom at 90w and also in our rehearsal studio. I surely know what that sounds like and dig it very much ;) Before that I had a mark iii and played it through an EV loaded cab but had to attenuate it. The rest of the band had problems with it. And I played in a hardcore punk band... idko_O
 
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