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Amp in a Room vs Studio Recorded Tones

666was999

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No one's whining or crying about anything. People have preferences, and that's precisely what the OP was asking about. If you prefer FRFR, great. If you don't, great. But trying to convince someone else that their preference is illegitimate is stupid.
Ok. Sorry about that. Wasn't about you or someone special. The thread got to a point where there was no search for solutions anymore. It started as a very good conversation and then went bad.
Too bad because the basic question is valid: How to use the Axe-Fx best when there is no PA?
 

ChainOfThought

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Ok. Let's step one step back from the picture. No assumptions about where the mic has to be placed or if one single or a mix is better or if we take one that colours the tone or is neutral ( like an Earthworks TC30).
What's the best way to get the bedroom players and the direct/FOH-less players their AITR tone by using IRs and FRFR systems?


If there is a sweet spot somewhere in front of a guitarcab and you could place your mic exactly there and if the mic is one that doesn't add colour and you avoid capturing any reflections (because later when you use the IR your FRFR monitor at home will add it's own reflections coming from your room) one should be able to come pretty close to what the AITR fans want?

To make these IRs you'd need a neutral mic or two (stereo) and a room with almost no reflections.
It seems nobody took such IRs until now? Would they work?
Its an interesting thing to try and figure out, for sure, but I don't really think its possible. I think the biggest issue for traditional cab vs frfr is the feel of it, wayyyy more than the sound of it. Not to mention that I would think a lot of the traditional cab in the room sound is influenced by the directionality of the speaker and how frequencies shoot in different directions/patterns/times/whatever from the speaker and bounce around the room in particular ways. By picking one capture point and recording that, then sending that sound out from the speaker, you've created an entirely different animal.

I just don't think that having FRFR perfectly emulate a cab such that you could craft a tone through a marshall 4x12 and then emulate that tone through a set of CLR's is possible, regardless of method. Doesn't mean that either system is better or worse, just that they're different.
 

Tahoebrian5

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Most of you probably have way more knowledge about the technical aspects of this stuff but it still is baffling to me how many people claim and stand by the fact that it is impossible to get the correct sound in a room using an FR type speaker. I may not be a pro or have as discerning an ear as some, but I have been playing in front of a half stack for over 30 years. The first time I tried my ASM, I gave it a half hour, dialed through some random ir's, and thought there goes $900 down the drain. Didn't even touch it for months because it sounded like crap. Then I decided to give it another try, educated myself a bit, did some A/B ing with my real cab and finally got to where it sounded better not just to me but everyone in the band unanimously agreed it was better, at which point the other guitar player bought a fractal and asm as well.

My point is I think you can get there, but with the caveat that you have to pick the sweet spot as mentioned above and try for that sound. You have to work at dialing in the cab thump without muddling up your lows, etc. It could be that it's just the ASM that has me happy as others that have compared multiple solutions say that it sounds the most cab like. Now with both guitars running fr rigs, I can walk around the studio and it sounds remarkably uniform where before it was a shitstorm of noise. Anyway, rant over
 

666was999

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I don't expect an FRFR to sound and feel exactly like a 4x12 cab...they are built way different. But at least I'd like to come close to it out of the box.
I have my two Matrix Q12A that do an awesome job in the rehearse room and for some pub jobs (stages always with IEM's).
So far I'm very satisfied with my system for now. Let's call it FRFR ITR.
But I needed an insane amount of EQ-tweaking and a long trial and error journey to get there.
So I wonder why I didn't find an IR that gives me my FRFR ITR feeling out if the box without tweaking. And why do I have to walk through an endless amount of IRs to pick good ones? It's not a plug and play system...but it should get there. Even now with the Axe III I don't see us getting there.
 

Jason Scott

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Most of you probably have way more knowledge about the technical aspects of this stuff but it still is baffling to me how many people claim and stand by the fact that it is impossible to get the correct sound in a room using an FR type speaker. I may not be a pro or have as discerning an ear as some, but I have been playing in front of a half stack for over 30 years. The first time I tried my ASM, I gave it a half hour, dialed through some random ir's, and thought there goes $900 down the drain. Didn't even touch it for months because it sounded like crap. Then I decided to give it another try, educated myself a bit, did some A/B ing with my real cab and finally got to where it sounded better not just to me but everyone in the band unanimously agreed it was better, at which point the other guitar player bought a fractal and asm as well.

My point is I think you can get there, but with the caveat that you have to pick the sweet spot as mentioned above and try for that sound. You have to work at dialing in the cab thump without muddling up your lows, etc. It could be that it's just the ASM that has me happy as others that have compared multiple solutions say that it sounds the most cab like. Now with both guitars running fr rigs, I can walk around the studio and it sounds remarkably uniform where before it was a shitstorm of noise. Anyway, rant over
The issue is whether someone who wants to reproduce the sound of a specific unmic'd cab can get there with an IR of their cab through an FRFR speaker. Some people may end up preferring the sound of their FRFR more than their traditional cab, however the point is that there's a sonic difference between the two and if you buy an Axe FX and FRFR expecting that it will perfectly reproduce the sound of the cab you currently own, you stand to be sorely disappointed.
 

Jason Scott

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I don't expect an FRFR to sound and feel exactly like a 4x12 cab...they are built way different. But at least I'd like to come close to it out of the box.
I have my two Matrix Q12A that do an awesome job in the rehearse room and for some pub jobs (stages always with IEM's).
So far I'm very satisfied with my system for now. Let's call it FRFR ITR.
But I needed an insane amount of EQ-tweaking and a long trial and error journey to get there.
So I wonder why I didn't find an IR that gives me my FRFR ITR feeling out if the box without tweaking. And why do I have to walk through an endless amount of IRs to pick good ones? It's not a plug and play system...but it should get there. Even now with the Axe III I don't see us getting there.
You have to factor in the room you're playing and listening in into the equation. A preset that sounds just right in one room may, for example, sound brighter or darker in another.
 

666was999

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Different rooms also affect real amps...they don't sound much better or much worse in brighter or darker sounding rooms, a bit only?
 

666was999

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BTW my same presets work good with FRFR, headphones, studio mons and PA systems.
I got it them to work everywhere after a while. So it's possible.
It just wasn't that way out of the box and it took it's time.
 

Jason Scott

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Different rooms also affect real amps...they don't sound much better or much worse in brighter or darker sounding rooms, a bit only?
Yes, however my reply was primarily in response to:

"... why do I have to walk through an endless amount of IRs to pick good ones? It's not a plug and play system...but it should get there."

An IR that sounds great in one room to the person who captured it might sound like crap to someone else in a different room using a different guitar / FRFR.
 

Jason Scott

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BTW my same presets work good with FRFR, headphones, studio mons and PA systems.
I got it them to work everywhere after a while. So it's possible.
It just wasn't that way out of the box and it took it's time.
What sounds great to you across the board may sound like garbage to someone else and vice versa. The point is, IR's that don't suit you initially may sound perfect to someone else across all of their amplification devices. One size will likely never fit all.
 

666was999

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You both are right about taste and room.
But there are real amps and cabs (MS 2203, Recto, 4x12 V30) that please most players out of the box.

The amp modelling got better and better and now many models are good right from the start with basic tweaking.

Still IRs are a lot of teadious work to walk through. And there is no main collection that pleases almost everyone?
 

Jason Scott

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You both are right about taste and room.
But there are real amps and cabs (MS 2203, Recto, 4x12 V30) that please most players out of the box.
Right, but most players don't typically leave the knobs on an amp where they're set straight out of the box, nor do they use the exact same settings for different cabs. Moreover, as has been stated, IR's only represent a slice of a cab as heard through a microphone. Unlike an unmic'd cab, different microphones and how they're positioned determine how a mic'd cab (ie. IR) sounds. There are a lot more variables to consider which determine the sound of an IR vs. an unmic'd cab.
 
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Tahoebrian5

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Part of my initial struggle was that I knew nothing about speaker types or mics. It took a while to determine what type of speaker I liked. Then the factory cabs are a huge farm pack of a bunch of different stuff. Going through them at random is extremely frustrating.
 

Tahoebrian5

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The issue is whether someone who wants to reproduce the sound of a specific unmic'd cab can get there with an IR of their cab through an FRFR speaker. Some people may end up preferring the sound of their FRFR more than their traditional cab, however the point is that there's a sonic difference between the two and if you buy an Axe FX and FRFR expecting that it will perfectly reproduce the sound of the cab you currently own, you stand to be sorely disappointed.
In my opinion (key phrase!) the only difference once the fr rig and ir is dialed in is the real cab will change drastically based on where you are standing, the angle of your ears, etc, whereas the FR rig will only change a little bit. I guess Im backing the sweet spot theory, that's what I'm hearing anyway.
 

Jason Scott

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In my opinion (key phrase!) the only difference once the fr rig and ir is dialed in is the real cab will change drastically based on where you are standing, the angle of your ears, etc, whereas the FR rig will only change a little bit. I guess Im backing the sweet spot theory, that's what I'm hearing anyway.
Okay, but my point was that no one should buy a modeler and FRFR expecting to perfectly reproduce the sound of their unmic'd cab.
 

666was999

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A modeller has to be able to perform in different situations. Mainly we play on stages and use IEMs, but once or twice a year we make promotion gigs in pubs and that's with monitors and the audience can hear them.
Should I need a second modeller system for that? No way!
It has to deliver always and everywhere.
 

manu68

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Yes, however my reply was primarily in response to:

"... why do I have to walk through an endless amount of IRs to pick good ones? It's not a plug and play system...but it should get there."

An IR that sounds great in one room to the person who captured it might sound like crap to someone else in a different room using a different guitar / FRFR.
I took me a lot of time to clearly understand this.
I use monitors (also FRFR)
With the current state of amp models, it is now virtually possible to load an amp, let everything default, then you just have to load IR's and cab (even from other amps) until it sounds good to you.
It is difficult at first sight to accept to load a 4x12 Marshall for going with a AC30 or Fender, but if it sounds good, it souds good !
I will add that almost every backtrack I use need another IR/cab to play along.
 

Smilzo

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I don't expect an FRFR to sound and feel exactly like a 4x12 cab...they are built way different. But at least I'd like to come close to it out of the box.
...But I needed an insane amount of EQ-tweaking and a long trial and error journey to get there.
... It's not a plug and play system...but it should get there.
Moreover, as has been stated, IR's only represent a slice of a cab as heard through a microphone.
Maybe the IR are not the right tool/algo to reproduce the amp in the room?

Okay, but my point was that no one should buy a modeler and FRFR expecting to perfectly reproduce the sound of their unmic'd cab.
I wish a modeler that can reproduce the amp in the room sound. I don't record anymore, I play live. If I had to record, the axefx with IR sit nicely in any mix faster than any real amp/cabs. It's a joy to record with axefx. As stated before somewhere, to make the sound of axefx on stage as good (individual taste) as real amp takes a lot of efforts and times. Axefx standard/ultra needed some struggle to make them shine trhough a mix (I remember posts & posts of suggestions...). Now the II & AX8 (& III I expect) perform flawless in recording... almost plug & play.

As stated before, maybe IR is not the right tool to reproduce the amp in the room feel? Maybe a new block is needed, with an algo that reproduce the entire cabs & feel trhu a FRFR, while the IR block shine feeding the PA or the recording desk...?
 

laxu

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Maybe the IR are not the right tool/algo to reproduce the amp in the room?
In theory, an IR made with a neutral mic should sound like pressing your head to the micing position - which you would not do. The problem is that the amp in the room sound is always reliant on the room itself, where the speaker is positioned in it and where you as a listener are standing.

Line6's brand new PowerCab tries to solves this by what I am guessing applying a suitable tone match tuned to the speaker in the PowerCab so it can simulate a 1x12 with different speakers. The rest is up to the actual room. Will be interesting to hear how it fares, as a concept it sounds promising because using a poweramp and real guitar cabs locks you into 1 or 2 different cabs which don't sound the best for all amp models.
 

666was999

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There exist FF IRs and Room IRs. Both are different, one is with roomy sound, the other one is dry. When people talk about FF IRs I hope they all mean the dry ones, the others are usually named room mic and alike.
 
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