Amp - Cab IR suggestions for a Live Situation

decipher

Inspired
I’ve just started a death-thrash metal side project with a bunch of touring musicians with the sole intention of taking the band live and targeting a bunch of metal clubs and festivals soon.

Our sound engineer had a unique suggestion which I needed your help with/ views or suggestions.

So we are a two guitar band and both guitar players play the rhythm parts with twin leads and harmonies. Our sound engineer suggested to us that both the guitar players should go stereo so that he can have 4 guitar signals to work with.

The guitar player standing onto the sound engineer’s left side should route a more focused mid heavy tone through his left channel (so that he cuts through on his side) and a scooped wider tone through the right channel. The guitar player on the right side of the sound engineer should flip the cabs. In other words he should route a more focused mid heavy to his right side and a scooped wider sound onto his left.

By doing this, he believes that both guitar players would cut through on their respective sides and the audience would effectively hear two guitars on each side of the PA without their tones clashing.

Firstly, I needed your views on the pros and cons of this setup versus the regular one guitar on each side thingy

Secondly, if we were to go with this setup should the guitarists just use the same amp and cab and just flip the assigned cab on each channel or go for completely independent tones?

Lastly, what Cab IR combinations would you’ll suggest to achieve this? We personally love the sound of the 6160 LD amp so would prefer if you guys can suggest cabs that work well with this amp and for this setup.

PS- We use the AX8 and Axe FX II.
 
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you're asking what real guitar cabs to use? just making sure.

both in stereo would be great assuming you make use of it.
 
you're asking what real guitar cabs to use? just making sure.

both in stereo would be great assuming you make use of it.

Oh I should have clarified. I meant cab IRs on the Axe FX. We don’t intend on using tube amps and cabs on stage.
 
the title says it, what Ir's to use. Thats very subjective. I like the old 4x12 v30 (was it cab 62 on the original axe 2?)
 
the title says it, what Ir's to use. Thats very subjective. I like the old 4x12 v30 (was it cab 62 on the original axe 2?)

So I have noticed over the years that most cab IRs that are available seem to be geared towards the studio. I’m not sure if these IRs translate as well Live .. I Personally think a separate line of CAB IRs for live use is very important

@ownhammer @York Audio @ML SOUND LAB
please chime in with your expert views
 
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Chris It probably stems from the fact that the IRs that sound good at low volumes dont necessarily sound great when cranked up in a live situation. Fletcher munson maybe?

I think @PETER NORTHCOTE has summed it up well here
https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/axe-fx-live-tips.143312/
I’d guess 1/2 or more of the modeling gear used from any brand uses IRs live. I don’t understand I guess. I use IRs and they sound great. If you don’t use them, what are you supposed to use?
 
I’d guess 1/2 or more of the modeling gear used from any brand uses IRs live. I don’t understand I guess. I use IRs and they sound great. If you don’t use them, what are you supposed to use?

The guitar tone in the studio is totally different and independent from the guitar tone on stage. They are different beasts.

I am not saying that we shouldn't use IRs. To the contrary I think using IRs is beneficial as it reduces the need for an amp and cab on stage and that reduces the noise levels on stage.

What I am only saying is that the IRs are captured in a manner so as to suit a recording situation. For live use, considering the ridiculous volumes and dynamics, the regular IRs sometimes don't sit as well in the overall Live mix... Maybe a separate line of IRs that may suit a live situation would be useful.... Or I might be missing something..
 
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For me, biggest problem is the excessive brightness of many IR's. Find a darker IR that works great at 100db without additional high cuts. For example, the Petrucci ir is a good candidate for mid punch. Only way to do that is to go through them at loud volume.

Try Ownhammer L-BB from their first release, Studio collection. Sort of scooped but fat. Petrucci IR for mids. The old V30 ir from axe2 for funny scoopedness.

For recording, the bright IR's are fine.

My main clean/breakup IR is from a Fender super reverb, someone posted it here years ago from their own IR sessions. I first dismissed it as too dark when testing in home, but at band volume it was perfect.
 
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For me, biggest problem is the excessive brightness of many IR's. Find a darker IR that works great at 100db without additional high cuts. For example, the Petrucci ir is a good candidate for mid punch. Only way to do that is to go through them at loud volume.

Try Ownhammer L-BB from their first release, Studio collection. Sort of scooped but fat. Petrucci IR for mids. The old V30 ir from axe2 for funny scoopedness.

For recording, the bright IR's are fine.

Yes that is exactly what I have noticed too. The highs work well in a recording but it can get very overwhelming at 100db.

Has anyone tried setting patches or choosing cabs at high volumes ?
 
An IR is a "recording" of the sound of a mic'd cabinet.

In the studio, the mic setup often is more complex than on a stage. But the principe is exactly the same.

On a stage a single SM57, or 421, or 906, in front of the cabinet suffices. Almost every IR library contains single mic IRs based on those dynamic mic types. There's no difference with a studio setup in that regard. And the amount of top end in the signal is the same. Because that's how close-miking works, in the studio and on stage. It's up to the mixer / studio engineer to deal with that.

We've got all the tools for this in our FAS device. Either decrease the top end by adjusting amp controls, or turn down High Cut in the Cab block. Always do this at the volume level you'll be playing at live.

Regarding your sound guy's advice: that's certainly possible, but IMHO it's too much trouble. Just pick your own rhythm sound (make sure that each player has his own sound) and add some mid-heavy drive when playing leads. This has worked for 60 years, no reason it won't work for you. Focus on the playing. and performance, and have fun. :)
 
An IR is a "recording" of the sound of a mic'd cabinet.

In the studio cab, the mic setup often is more complex than on a stage. But the principe is exactly the same.

On a stage a single SM57, or 421, or 906, in front of the cabinet suffices. Almost every IR library contains single mic IRs using those dynamic mic types. There's no difference with a studio setup in that regard. And the amount of top end in the signal is the same. Because that's how close-miking works, in the studio and on stage. It's up to the mixer / studio engineer to deal with that.

We've got all the tools for this in our FAS device. Either decrease the top end by adjusting amp controls, or turn down High Cut in the Cab block. Always do this at the volume level you'll be playing at live.

Regarding your sound guy's advice: that's certainly possible, but IMHO it's too much trouble. Just pick your own rhythm sound (make sure that each player has his own sound) and add some mid-heavy drive when playing leads. This has worked for 60 years, no reason it won't work for you. Focus on the playing. and performance, and have fun. :)

thanks for the advice Yek!

Yea the straightforward way works for sure. But with twin harmonies and leads, one guitar on each side doesn’t allow for the harmonies to shine.

our engineers method will shine in a festival scenario with large PAs and stages.. would allow for the crowd on each side to hear both guitars...

Any chance you could suggest a few cab combinations to suit this particular setup?
 
Gday mate!
Well, i always worry when the sound guys wants to fuk with my sound!
The AXEFX is an amazing machine that allows me to dial in 'My Tone'. I don't want the sound guy doing anything to 'it'.
I like the idea of having 2 signals....if thats what YOU want. But if it is just for 'Cut', you should be able to sort that out before it goes to the sound guy. Get that together before he has a say. You wrote the music, you played the parts. Get it fukin rockin before everything so the sound guy loves it and doesn't have to mess with it. Let him 'Mix'...not 'Produce on the fly'.

So, now we are left with the conundrum of how to get the right sound for your band. What amps and IRs to use.
Firstly, try not to leave that up to your sound guy. He's just guessing, ...like we all are.
You have 'the power!'
Use what you like.
For live, there are a few things you might like to consider.

Fo me, the 4x12s just have too much low end (no, not all of them, but there are a bunch of overtones that work great in the studio but not live....for me!).
Remember, when a 4x12 is miked up on stage it's usually with one 57, or something similar.
So, that mic will not capture all the cab bottom end. It's usually tight on the cone or the edge of it.
So, the 1x12 IRs are fun and good.
I like a happy medium of a 2x12.
But, i'm not playing the type of music you are. (so this could all mean crap to you....lol)

I think the Supremo #95 LEGACY is great for me. I also like the YA 112 DLXV Q160 C2 (User 1 #8) And a combination of them both.
Using these you wont get that fuzzy hifi blur and phazey honk that you often hear with some IRs when they are turned up loud or put though a live FRFR.

Without me sounding like a goose.....Get your sound sounding like a real amp.

Watch the low end. It can be deceiving (just ask Fletcher-Muson).
It baffled me from day one when i started with the AXEFX. I was given a CLR and just thought it sounded too 'HIFI'.
We all did when it was introduced here in OZ. I know a lot of guys that still cant commit to FRFR. Ive tried soooo many of the FRFRs out there and they are not as FR as they claim to be. (if you know what i mean) The CLR is as good as i can find....so far. (and i'm still looking).

But watch out with the big box IRs.
Remember, many mics on a cab, capturing all frequencies, for an IR recording....into a cab (FRFR) that has its own frequencies will mess with your head, ....and your sound guy!...and your audience!

I do small gigs where i use one CLR. (i have 3...just in case, and often use 2 at a gig)
I used to run mono sounds but now i run stereo patches. I use the LEFT side for my CLR and give the sound guy the RIGHT side. i set the CLR up as a backline amp and stick the AXEFX on top. T085hat way, the audience 'might' get some of the delays and chorus's of both sides. if the sound guy wants stereo, he can.
But i never get the sound guy ask me to boost or change anything. And if he did, i would know he's a dick. Because through years of working with the AXEFX, i know my sound, Live and in the studio. (although it is changing, like it always has even when i was using real amps) But i know i can find what i want now and challenge myself to create better and better tones.
Good luck and go with what you feel sounds good in the studio/rehearsal room/stage.
Cheers
Pete
 
Gday mate!
Well, i always worry when the sound guys wants to fuk with my sound!
The AXEFX is an amazing machine that allows me to dial in 'My Tone'. I don't want the sound guy doing anything to 'it'.
I like the idea of having 2 signals....if thats what YOU want. But if it is just for 'Cut', you should be able to sort that out before it goes to the sound guy. Get that together before he has a say. You wrote the music, you played the parts. Get it fukin rockin before everything so the sound guy loves it and doesn't have to mess with it. Let him 'Mix'...not 'Produce on the fly'.

So, now we are left with the conundrum of how to get the right sound for your band. What amps and IRs to use.
Firstly, try not to leave that up to your sound guy. He's just guessing, ...like we all are.
You have 'the power!'
Use what you like.
For live, there are a few things you might like to consider.

Fo me, the 4x12s just have too much low end (no, not all of them, but there are a bunch of overtones that work great in the studio but not live....for me!).
Remember, when a 4x12 is miked up on stage it's usually with one 57, or something similar.
So, that mic will not capture all the cab bottom end. It's usually tight on the cone or the edge of it.
So, the 1x12 IRs are fun and good.
I like a happy medium of a 2x12.
But, i'm not playing the type of music you are. (so this could all mean crap to you....lol)

I think the Supremo #95 LEGACY is great for me. I also like the YA 112 DLXV Q160 C2 (User 1 #8) And a combination of them both.
Using these you wont get that fuzzy hifi blur and phazey honk that you often hear with some IRs when they are turned up loud or put though a live FRFR.

Without me sounding like a goose.....Get your sound sounding like a real amp.

Watch the low end. It can be deceiving (just ask Fletcher-Muson).
It baffled me from day one when i started with the AXEFX. I was given a CLR and just thought it sounded too 'HIFI'.
We all did when it was introduced here in OZ. I know a lot of guys that still cant commit to FRFR. Ive tried soooo many of the FRFRs out there and they are not as FR as they claim to be. (if you know what i mean) The CLR is as good as i can find....so far. (and i'm still looking).

But watch out with the big box IRs.
Remember, many mics on a cab, capturing all frequencies, for an IR recording....into a cab (FRFR) that has its own frequencies will mess with your head, ....and your sound guy!...and your audience!

I do small gigs where i use one CLR. (i have 3...just in case, and often use 2 at a gig)
I used to run mono sounds but now i run stereo patches. I use the LEFT side for my CLR and give the sound guy the RIGHT side. i set the CLR up as a backline amp and stick the AXEFX on top. T085hat way, the audience 'might' get some of the delays and chorus's of both sides. if the sound guy wants stereo, he can.
But i never get the sound guy ask me to boost or change anything. And if he did, i would know he's a dick. Because through years of working with the AXEFX, i know my sound, Live and in the studio. (although it is changing, like it always has even when i was using real amps) But i know i can find what i want now and challenge myself to create better and better tones.
Good luck and go with what you feel sounds good in the studio/rehearsal room/stage.
Cheers
Pete

Pete this is just pure gold! I totally agree with this and am going to give your suggestions a go immediately!

Never considered going the 2x12 route tbh till you mentioned. Considering I’ve always played metal, a 4x12 is almost a default choice, but now what you’ve said makes a shit ton of sense!
 
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