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Amp Block General level when using cabs + pinch harmonics

Omri Bazelet

Inspired
Hi everybody! I have a weird question that been bothering me a bit and I hope to get an answer for it. even if it SUPER DUMB one

The AX3 is modeled directly from a real amplifier that cliff have and loyal to the origin and it proven enough it does, and some amp are quieter than others by default.

For example if want to raise the volume of an amp I use live, I simply use the master volume knob or else the volume knob.
The level control in the AX3 (seperated from the amp block) is as I get it is a sort of an attenuator that allows me to raise to lower the general amp volume and it output level to the output block.

And since all amp levels are different in someway and I want to use it with a cab as authentic as it gets (simply connecting a head to the cab and use the amp block as i would use the amp in real room) how do I determine the "level" general amount in front of a cab, which level is actually sent from every single amp to a cab?

Another question I have and it's about pinch harmonics.
I have recently felt that some modelers are missing some of the juice of the pinch harmonics. Of course I'm using high output pickups. But only with the real amp I could get a more "screaming/wylde" type of pinches where in the AX3 it's a bit more tired and small? Is it a matter of volume?
 

chris

Legend!
that may be too specific or something the Axe doesn't try to reproduce. it also depends where your physical Out knob is set as well as your Amp/Power amp going to the real cab. many variables affect the actual signal going to the real cab.

i would just set the levels using the VU meter in the Layout > Zoom Out view, and adjust the physical knobs as needed. chances are, the volume you end up with coming out of the real cabs would be the same level the real amp would be pushing through the cabs.

i'm sure there's an additional difference of the level being created by a line-level device vs the level coming out of a Speaker Output jack of an amp.

this just might not be something that needs to be authentic for various reasons. just my thoughts on it.
 

IronSean

Experienced
The Amp into cab level modelling is all still done in the Amp block. Speaker compression, Speaker Impedance Curves, Speaker Distortion, etc are all actually in the Amp block. You can tweak them individually, but they probably default to a standard level. Some of them also are affected by the setting of the MASTER control, which is what would affect them on a real amp too.

I'd adjust the master until it sound best, using the level to compensate and keep your total volume around the 0 dB range on the meters.
 

Omri Bazelet

Inspired
yeah, Master isn't really volume, it's hoow hard you're driving the virtual power amp. Level is pure volume.
That's for certain, but it does increase level in a real life amp, and simultaneously increase power amp gain.
That pretty much what I'm looking into
 

jlynnb1

Fractal Fanatic
That's for certain, but it does increase level in a real life amp, and simultaneously increase power amp gain.
That pretty much what I'm looking into
yes but once you hit a point it doesn't get louder, just more saturated. Issue is most people can't play an amp loud enough to push it to that
point.
 

Omri Bazelet

Inspired
yes but once you hit a point it doesn't get louder, just more saturated. Issue is most people can't play an amp loud enough to push it to that
point.
That's the exact situation that I want to simulate with the AX3 with my cab. And If it's too loud, I'll just turn the level down, but first I want to come to a base authentic output level of that model
 

jlynnb1

Fractal Fanatic
i don't think there's really a such thing...just set the Master to where it's the right compression/saturation/tightness you want then use the level to get the volume you want.
 

is9582

Power User
Do you have a power amp to feed the AX3 into, that will push an actual cab, or if not, do you have a powered cab? The AX3 is a preamp, and even though it generates the sounds of real life amps, it puts out a very small signal, compared to an actual tube amp. If this is old news, please just disregard. Cheers, Lee
 

Omri Bazelet

Inspired
Pinch harmonics are relatively weak harmonics. To get them to sustain you need volume. Real volume. No gettin' around physics.
OK! So I simply need to raise the level knob or the master volume?


Do you have a power amp to feed the AX3 into, that will push an actual cab, or if not, do you have a powered cab? The AX3 is a preamp, and even though it generates the sounds of real life amps, it puts out a very small signal, compared to an actual tube amp. If this is old news, please just disregard. Cheers, Lee
I do have a power amp and a tube power amp but I'm having a difficulty with actually making the amp block "push" the cab speakers (Yes, i use the speaker page cab curve)
 

IronSean

Experienced
OK! So I simply need to raise the level knob or the master volume?

He means, real, physical, real world volume. Set the MASTER on the amp model to where it sounds good, set the LEVEL on the amp model so you're around 0 dB, and set the physical output knob on the Axe, and on your power amps such that you're loud enough to get physical reinforcement where the sound coming from the cab/speaker helps reinforce the pinch harmonic on your guitar.
 

IronSean

Experienced
That's the exact situation that I want to simulate with the AX3 with my cab. And If it's too loud, I'll just turn the level down, but first I want to come to a base authentic output level of that model

There's no such thing as an authentic output level, since the real answer is "wherever the person playing wanted the volume at that day". If you want a bedroom level tone, keep the master really low (shockingly low, like 0.5 or 1. Note that amps with channel and global master both have a multiplicative effect, a global master at 30% and a channel master at 30% on a real amp means you're really around ~10% output ).

If you want the "turned up" feel, then turn up master until the headroom level starts getting close to the top of the headroom meter. That gets your virtual power amp fully engaged but not saturating.

If you wanted a "cranked" tube amp sound with lots of power tube distortion, like would be common with vintage marshall and fender amps, turn the Master up past the level of headroom running out and adjust to taste.

If you're using a non-Master Volume amp, like said MArshall's and Fenders that didn't have a Master Volume, authentically they start at 10 on MASTER and the amp block should default there too.
 

biggness

Power User
Pinch harmonics are relatively weak harmonics. To get them to sustain you need volume. Real volume. No gettin' around physics.

I've talked about this before, but in my opinion, pinch harmonics are "lacking" with the Axe-FX III. There's a certain roundness, for a lack of a better word, missing. They sound and feel like a new cardboard box looks, straight and stiff, as where an amp's (examples: Mark IV, 5150's) sound and feel like that same box stuffed beyond capacity. Just bulging, round, and enriched.

This isn't an issue of volume either. I have enough watts to send me back in time lol
 

Omri Bazelet

Inspired
I've talked about this before, but in my opinion, pinch harmonics are "lacking" with the Axe-FX III. There's a certain roundness, for a lack of a better word, missing. They sound and feel like a new cardboard box looks, straight and stiff, as where an amp's (examples: Mark IV, 5150's) sound and feel like that same box stuffed beyond capacity. Just bulging, round, and enriched.

This isn't an issue of volume either. I have enough watts to send me back in time lol
I know right, I should really test it with db Meter and take a video to explain it.
It will probably make a better illustration or else I will be suprised by the AX3
 
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