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Amazing what wire can do

shasha

Fractal Fanatic
I'm not Cliff, but I believe that a reference IR is the inverse of the signal chain minus the mic and cabinet thus removing things like the power amp which would influence the accuracy of the IR.

Of course I could be wrong because I am not Cliff Chase, but it sounds good to me. :)
 

Thomas Larsson

Experienced
I have seen this behavior to. :roll

I think about it as if the negative feedback is being sent back from the speaker jack, instead of the speaker poles. And that theese to signals is supposed to be the same, but they're not , because of the "resistor" in between.

I've been thinking about (solving this)using four conductor speaker cables ,and connect the feedback signal through two of them in some way. This would take some modifikation of the amp though. This could work when I need long speaker cables in the studio or in that kind of situations.

This is, if I don't want that sort of fizzy sound that long,thin ,speaker cables give you.


The Axe-Fx is designed to recreate the signal at the speaker jack of a tube amp and it does this tremendously well. If I do a Tone Match to the output of the amp vs. the model it's almost always nearly a perfectly flat line.

So today I was playing around and did a quick tone match to one of my Plexis and then a Suhr Badger and the results showed a significant mid-scoop (2-3 dB). I was puzzled. Had I messed something up in the new firmware? I repeated the tone match using a DI off the speaker jack and the result was a perfectly flat line. Then I realized that the difference was due to this 30 ft speaker cable I was using because the speaker cab was remote from the amp. Just a bit surprised that that little resistance could have that much effect.

Fortunately the new Cab-Lab addresses all this by allowing you to capture reference IRs and we've included reference IRs along with our latest Cab-Pack.

To double-check I then captured a reference IR off the speaker and corrected the IR using the new Cab-Lab and viola, perfectly flat.
 
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joegold

Fractal Fanatic
I'm not Cliff, but I believe that a reference IR is the inverse of the signal chain minus the mic and cabinet thus removing things like the power amp which would influence the accuracy of the IR.

Of course I could be wrong because I am not Cliff Chase, but it sounds good to me. :)
Glad that sounds good to you, but it makes no sense to me. :)

Are you saying that after Cliff takes an IR of a signal chain that includes a cab + mic he then takes an IR of just the power amp that was used and has some way of subtracting that from the original IR in order to get a more accurate representation of the sound of the mic + cab alone?
So Cliff will supply these inverse power amp IRs with the IRs sold in future Fractal Cab Packs?
Is that the gist of it?
Will there also be inverse IRs of the mic pres?

And the new CabLab will have the ability to subtract IRs from each other as well?
So if shoot we our own IRs, we'll be able to take an IR of our power amp - and the new CabLab will allow us to subtract it from the original IR?

I've never really understood how to record an IR of a mic, because the mic's response is so dependent on proximity, but doesn't Cliff also have IRs of the various mics used in the mic sims in the Cab Block and if so, we should be able to subtract these as well in order to get an even less coloured speaker IR, no?
[How does one take an IR of a mic?]

Am I anywhere close with any of this or am I just making things up?
 

joegold

Fractal Fanatic
A long speaker cord increases the resistance between the amp and the speaker which decreases the damping factor. A lower damping factor means the response follows the impedance curve of the speaker more than a high damping factor.
Could you please make an attempt to explain what that might sound like?
E.g. Longer spkr cable = more highs? less highs?
Etc.
 

Randy4Guitars

Power User
I'm playing around with two Axe Fx 2 now and just using some 8 foot instrument cords to put one in the FX loop of the other. I can definitely hear the loss in high end when I kick in the loop. Need much shorter connections!
 

Larry Mitchell

Experienced
That's a slippery slope. It definitely makes a difference. I have used some $400 a cable speaker cables in my studio and some other crazy expensive cables. I had to give it back. I didn't want walk down that road! Once you get one really high cable and hear the difference, you want to change all of your cables. Matching lengths for left and right. Finding apTHE right length for soda Jeff cable from head to cab. The right guitar length and cable. It goes on and on. I have a friend that's has 10 grand in cables for his studio. It's not that big a studio. I usually play the T H E. Show at CES every year. I play through a van. A Mercedes van (with my axe fx) that van has almost $30 grand in cabling! In a Van for car audio! :0)
 

SarasotaSwing

Experienced
Could you please make an attempt to explain what that might sound like?
E.g. Longer spkr cable = more highs? less highs?
Etc.
I believe he explained what it sounded like in the original post: longer speaker cable= significantly scooped mids (2-3db).
 

ChrisMetal86

Experienced
and didn't he say that the effect instrument cables would have would be far less dramatic?
I've never experimented with speaker cables, but I have heard differences in instrument cables, both length and brand. I've had some that make my guitars sound brittle and slightly fizzy, some that make it sound like there is a blanket over the guitars sound, and some that seem to really open up the guitars tone. Same guitar and setup, just swapping cables out between the guitar/amp/Axe.
 

Larry Mitchell

Experienced
Hi Chrismetal86.

Yes I'm here taking care of family when I'm not on the road. I'll be in town until January 12th. If your out this way let me know On my way! on by for some gear talk and coffee. Send me a PM I'll give my phone and address

Larry
 

joegold

Fractal Fanatic
Looks like I'm going to have to buy some lower gauge cable for my 25-footer.

I just did some A/B'ing over here and unless I'm fooling myself I do hear a difference between my 10' and 25' 18 ga speaker cables with the 25-footer being noticeably more scooped.
It's almost negligible, but I'm kind of a control freak.
 

rsf1977_again

Power User
Is speaker cable gauge the only important factor when considering a long speaker cable? And does lower gauge lower the scooping effect?
 

pdup

Experienced
It's over the Cliff to think that you can EQ you out of one or several reactive or capacitive time-based quirks that wreck havoc in the time-domain.
 

erockomania

Experienced
If we kept amps "stock" this might be a thing I'd care about, but with all the little tweaks we do, I can't imagine there is anything to concern ourselves over. Having said that, I appreciate all the efforts taken to make things "real".
 

mr_fender

Fractal Fanatic
I would think it depends on the speaker load as well. Adding half an ohm of resistance in front of a 16 ohm cab would be a lot smaller difference compared to adding to say a 2 ohm cab. Seems like the lower impedance taps on the output tranny would be more sensitive to cable resistance differences.
 
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