nikki-k
Experienced
The thread title says it all.
Well, almost...
In this thread, I raised the question: If an IR can theoretically provide a (near) identical experience to a cab with a mic on it (same, mic, same exact placement), will this occur in the "real world," and if it did not, why not?
IOW, if I were to mic a cab, record a pass, and simultaneously record the dry, -no cab- version, and then, with the mic in the exact same place, capture/create an IR, would the dry take plus IR be (near) indiscernible from the mic'd take? Further, if I were to mic a cab in another room and jam along via my studio monitors, and then replace the mic'd cab with a Cab Block with an IR taken from that same mic and placement, would I be able to tell the difference?
If the answer to that last question were "no" (as in, "No, I cannot tell the difference"), then what would I need to do/possess in order to duplicate the experience of sitting in a room WITH a cab and then replacing that cab with an IR or IRs?
The answers occurred thanks to AlbertA, and a good deal of effort. This has been a HUGE game changer for me. I cannot make that "HUGE" large enough to reflect just how it has impacted my experience, not just with the Axe, but with the use of IRs across the board. It is like... I was trying to surf, and every effort seemed to end with me face down in the sand under crushing waves, and drowning would be the only relief I could expect. In this sense, AlbertA taught me not so much how to surf, but how to think about surfing, how the ocean and surfboard interact (the basics already in place), and then held my hand while implementing.
In order to answer my questions, I figured it would be best to throw out the intent of obtaining quality IRs; IOW, ignore the quest for IRs that sound really good. Instead, concentrate on the METHOD of obtaining first. Artistically (and knowingly) placing a microphone is a separate concern, though there is a bit of overlap. To that end, AlbertA suggested the most logical method: Create a patch in the Axe-Fx II (dry, Amp only). Use the most neutral mic, preamp, and power amp available (TC30, Earthworks LAB102, and Peavey M2600). Set up the mic, close to the speaker. This is to eliminate as many variables as possible (room, stray noise, etc). Simultaneously record the mic signal and a direct out from the Axe. This will provide a comparative example later. Next, capture a sweep through that speaker with the mic left in the exact same spot, same processing chain (Steinberg MR816 ADC/DAC for me; it is a Yamaha product, quite decent). Deconvolve the recorded sweep. Edit, save, and then load into a plug-in that can convolve, compare.
In the thread I linked, AlbertA provided links to a couple such comparisons, one from each of the two sessions thus far. They demonstrate quite nicely just how close to identical we got, and that is with my being a "complete noob," and my not having premium equipment and/or conditions (smaller room in a duplex, cab a few feet away, etc). Even worse, I was so consumed with the questions that I completely forgot to decouple the mic stand and cabinet for that first, single IR session, and this led to a nice ~+3dB up to about 1k, lol. AlbertA was able to compensate for this via editing for this single capture that was Session 1.. and the end result is STILL so very close to the original mic'd recording.
Session 2 involved applying the same philosophy, but adding a second speaker type to the mix (EVM12L; Session 1 was a Celestion G12M25 Greenback), and trying various mic distances, up to 15"! And this is where it can get dicey; once you pull that mic back from the speaker a bit, the room will come into play. Or, more specifically, unwanted reflections. If the microphone is not close enough to the speaker to overcome the level of the earliest reflections, said reflections will *corrupt* the resulting IR. The smallest room, in theory (by my possibly faulty calculations, lol) would be one with NO reflective surface within ~12' of the cab. "Uh, how would I then hover a cab off the floor?" You would not, and that is where the other contributing factors (and science/math) come into play. For Session 2, my intent was to ascertain if, with my current recording capabilities, a capture of approximately one foot from the cab would be possible. I tried fifteen inches as well as about twelve inches, and I do not think the fifteen inch one was so different as to matter much to me.
I will be writing up a guide based upon my experiences thus far. It is by no means a, "This is how you do this" thing, but rather just a longer version of this experience thus far, and a bit of my resultant philosophy. I am going to link examples, and I am going to link to a zip containing the IRs and the Axe-Fx II patch I used for Session 2. If it helps someone, cool! If it is rubbish, cool! I am just incredibly thankful to AlbertA, and figure I might be able to "pass it on" to others. As I said, this has drastically altered my experience with the Axe-Fx II.
Link to .zip file with my IRs and Axe-Fx II patch I used. I also placed a text file in the zip with notes about both sessions, the IRs, etc. I have not uploaded the comparison clips yet (will be a bit of work), as I want to create indexed Soundcloud links for them. Once again: the IRs are not necessarily "great sounding." AlbertA linked two comparisons in the linked thread; the first one is the "nk_green_3in_mid_OA_TC30.syx" IR, and the second was using the "nk_EVM12L_8in_mid_15off_TC30.syx" IR (As far as I am aware).
Well, almost...
In this thread, I raised the question: If an IR can theoretically provide a (near) identical experience to a cab with a mic on it (same, mic, same exact placement), will this occur in the "real world," and if it did not, why not?
IOW, if I were to mic a cab, record a pass, and simultaneously record the dry, -no cab- version, and then, with the mic in the exact same place, capture/create an IR, would the dry take plus IR be (near) indiscernible from the mic'd take? Further, if I were to mic a cab in another room and jam along via my studio monitors, and then replace the mic'd cab with a Cab Block with an IR taken from that same mic and placement, would I be able to tell the difference?
If the answer to that last question were "no" (as in, "No, I cannot tell the difference"), then what would I need to do/possess in order to duplicate the experience of sitting in a room WITH a cab and then replacing that cab with an IR or IRs?
The answers occurred thanks to AlbertA, and a good deal of effort. This has been a HUGE game changer for me. I cannot make that "HUGE" large enough to reflect just how it has impacted my experience, not just with the Axe, but with the use of IRs across the board. It is like... I was trying to surf, and every effort seemed to end with me face down in the sand under crushing waves, and drowning would be the only relief I could expect. In this sense, AlbertA taught me not so much how to surf, but how to think about surfing, how the ocean and surfboard interact (the basics already in place), and then held my hand while implementing.
In order to answer my questions, I figured it would be best to throw out the intent of obtaining quality IRs; IOW, ignore the quest for IRs that sound really good. Instead, concentrate on the METHOD of obtaining first. Artistically (and knowingly) placing a microphone is a separate concern, though there is a bit of overlap. To that end, AlbertA suggested the most logical method: Create a patch in the Axe-Fx II (dry, Amp only). Use the most neutral mic, preamp, and power amp available (TC30, Earthworks LAB102, and Peavey M2600). Set up the mic, close to the speaker. This is to eliminate as many variables as possible (room, stray noise, etc). Simultaneously record the mic signal and a direct out from the Axe. This will provide a comparative example later. Next, capture a sweep through that speaker with the mic left in the exact same spot, same processing chain (Steinberg MR816 ADC/DAC for me; it is a Yamaha product, quite decent). Deconvolve the recorded sweep. Edit, save, and then load into a plug-in that can convolve, compare.
In the thread I linked, AlbertA provided links to a couple such comparisons, one from each of the two sessions thus far. They demonstrate quite nicely just how close to identical we got, and that is with my being a "complete noob," and my not having premium equipment and/or conditions (smaller room in a duplex, cab a few feet away, etc). Even worse, I was so consumed with the questions that I completely forgot to decouple the mic stand and cabinet for that first, single IR session, and this led to a nice ~+3dB up to about 1k, lol. AlbertA was able to compensate for this via editing for this single capture that was Session 1.. and the end result is STILL so very close to the original mic'd recording.
Session 2 involved applying the same philosophy, but adding a second speaker type to the mix (EVM12L; Session 1 was a Celestion G12M25 Greenback), and trying various mic distances, up to 15"! And this is where it can get dicey; once you pull that mic back from the speaker a bit, the room will come into play. Or, more specifically, unwanted reflections. If the microphone is not close enough to the speaker to overcome the level of the earliest reflections, said reflections will *corrupt* the resulting IR. The smallest room, in theory (by my possibly faulty calculations, lol) would be one with NO reflective surface within ~12' of the cab. "Uh, how would I then hover a cab off the floor?" You would not, and that is where the other contributing factors (and science/math) come into play. For Session 2, my intent was to ascertain if, with my current recording capabilities, a capture of approximately one foot from the cab would be possible. I tried fifteen inches as well as about twelve inches, and I do not think the fifteen inch one was so different as to matter much to me.
I will be writing up a guide based upon my experiences thus far. It is by no means a, "This is how you do this" thing, but rather just a longer version of this experience thus far, and a bit of my resultant philosophy. I am going to link examples, and I am going to link to a zip containing the IRs and the Axe-Fx II patch I used for Session 2. If it helps someone, cool! If it is rubbish, cool! I am just incredibly thankful to AlbertA, and figure I might be able to "pass it on" to others. As I said, this has drastically altered my experience with the Axe-Fx II.
Link to .zip file with my IRs and Axe-Fx II patch I used. I also placed a text file in the zip with notes about both sessions, the IRs, etc. I have not uploaded the comparison clips yet (will be a bit of work), as I want to create indexed Soundcloud links for them. Once again: the IRs are not necessarily "great sounding." AlbertA linked two comparisons in the linked thread; the first one is the "nk_green_3in_mid_OA_TC30.syx" IR, and the second was using the "nk_EVM12L_8in_mid_15off_TC30.syx" IR (As far as I am aware).
