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AITR

Valhallir

Power User
Vendor
@FractalAudio :
Will there be a way to import wavs with 1,3 s length to the syx format for users of 3rd party IRs like already existing?

We would be able to provide our complete portfolio, but preparing the files would only make sense if it is possible for users to do this.

Edit: I have read, that a new cab lab will do this, question answered)
 
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AlbertA

Fractal Fanatic
I was not advocating for it to be done in another block in my posts above (think maybe you mistook another post
for mine - no matter), and was understanding that fullres quality reflections really could not be done outside of an IR. However, if you say that, yes it could be done in a separate block!, then I do think there would be benefits to separating it out ie: 1. in a separate block, I could have parameters to control it (mix, level, ...), 2. I can put the separate block where I want it - with a full on reverb baked into the IR, I either have to have my reverb before fx like modulation which I don't want, or put the cab block at the end which I don't want it - these two items, and maybe others, would be compromises I may accepts if the baked in IR reflections sound so much more amazing. May be a moot point though as I'm not sure the kind of IR reflections were talking about are feasably segregated into a separate block. Not saying this is not going to be a great feature/option - I think it is - just want to really definitively understand this area better including the pro/con of different ways of doing it.

The good news is that I think you'll be able to do that with the IR Player block.
 

toneseeker911

Inspired
I agree with you on this. I kind of touched on it a few pages ago, and got blasted for being ungrateful, so it's nice to see someone else think objectively about it as well.

I did link to in one of my posts to a twelve year old post with a discussion about this with Jay Mitchell.

I'm just finding it odd that we were told for the whole duration of the product lines that longer IR's weren't needed, and to use reverb to fill in the missing pieces.

So why is this new feature added to the IR block now, and not the Reverb block, or its own block, and may or may not fit on the mk1, but if you buy the mk2 it will definitely fit.

That older discussion
Because the reverb block is an algorithmic reverb and doesn’t do IRs afaik. So it’s either the cab block or the IR player.
Irrespective of what block is used, you need the extra memory to store these long IRs. That’s where the mk2 has more nvm.
 

toneseeker911

Inspired
As I understand it, these long IRs are essentially room captures. It would be best to not have the cab IR baked into this sound. Cab IR from the regular direct short IRs and then an ability to add the room IR to another block. There are lots of other high quality room IRs from top recording studios already captured.
I think the IR player is the best place for this right before hitting the outputs. I don’t think I want a delay or chorus or tape drive after the cab block to work on the reverberated signal.
 

biggness

Power User
Because the reverb block is an algorithmic reverb and doesn’t do IRs afaik. So it’s either the cab block or the IR player.
Irrespective of what block is used, you need the extra memory to store these long IRs. That’s where the mk2 has more nvm.
I believe that the Bricasti M7 is algorithmic, the reverb all others are judged against.

There are a few close competitors with Bricasti that did some fancy IR capturing of the M7 and are fairly close, but there's still a gap in quality between the them. Seventh Heaven, Reverberate 2 are the two big ones. I think they use something called Fusion IR or something like that. I don't remember exactly as its been a while since I researched them all. But the point still stands. Algorithmic reverb is currently the gold standard, not IR based.

To me it just makes sense to have it as a standalone block for primarily the reason already mentioned. You don't want to time base effect your reverb.
 

Rex

Legend!
What intrigues me about this change is having the room reverb I normally use the reverb block for, replaced by a far better room reverb baked into the IR. From what I can gather reading about this, no separate reverb effect could approach the quality of the true reflections captured
into an IR.

My apprehensions are:
  • I have no parameter control at all - with a separate reverb block, I have loads.
  • I have no placement control as I do with reverb block (do I really want this much reverb before blocks like modulation?).
  • few variations are available yet.

Maybe I still don't have my head properly wrapped around this having abandoned ir reflections for the most part some time ago in favor of cpu miserly 512s and some room in the reverb block.
You've touched on some of the reasons why convolution reverb isn't automatically "better" than a digital reverb engine. Yes, it can be more true to the room, but there are things you can do with a good reverb algorithm that you can't do with a room capture. Things like crafting a reverb that's lush, but gets out of the way of the dry tone.

It's just another tool in the arsenal. A sweet and unique tool, but not always the right tool for the job.
 

FractalAudio

Administrator
Fractal Audio Systems
Moderator
I believe that the Bricasti M7 is algorithmic, the reverb all others are judged against.

There are a few close competitors with Bricasti that did some fancy IR capturing of the M7 and are fairly close, but there's still a gap in quality between the them. Seventh Heaven, Reverberate 2 are the two big ones. I think they use something called Fusion IR or something like that. I don't remember exactly as its been a while since I researched them all. But the point still stands. Algorithmic reverb is currently the gold standard, not IR based.

To me it just makes sense to have it as a standalone block for primarily the reason already mentioned. You don't want to time base effect your reverb.
Correct. Algorithmic reverb is considered to be superior to convolution reverb because algorithmic reverb can be perceptually tuned.

From a perceptual standpoint the ideal reverb is not found in typical reverberant spaces. See the work done by Griesinger, et. al. on perceptual reverberation.

As usual this whole topic has been confounded with people chiming in their opinions on topics of which they have little knowledge or experience.

The point of FullRes IRs is to add some room sound to your recordings and/or headphone playing. To do this you would mix conventional IRs with FullRes IRs.

You can ALSO use FullRes IRs to do short-to-medium convolution reverbs. If you have some reverb IRs you can convert them to FullRes IR format and load them in the IR Player block and use that as a reverb.
 

biggness

Power User
Correct. Algorithmic reverb is considered to be superior to convolution reverb because algorithmic reverb can be perceptually tuned.

From a perceptual standpoint the ideal reverb is not found in typical reverberant spaces. See the work done by Griesinger, et. al. on perceptual reverberation.

As usual this whole topic has been confounded with people chiming in their opinions on topics of which they have little knowledge or experience.

The point of FullRes IRs is to add some room sound to your recordings and/or headphone playing. To do this you would mix conventional IRs with FullRes IRs.

You can ALSO use FullRes IRs to do short-to-medium convolution reverbs. If you have some reverb IRs you can convert them to FullRes IR format and load them in the IR Player block and use that as a reverb.
I appreciate the clarification.

Sounds like a gnarly addition then, and I look forward to it. 🤙
 

deathbyguitar

Power User
Correct. Algorithmic reverb is considered to be superior to convolution reverb because algorithmic reverb can be perceptually tuned.

From a perceptual standpoint the ideal reverb is not found in typical reverberant spaces. See the work done by Griesinger, et. al. on perceptual reverberation.

As usual this whole topic has been confounded with people chiming in their opinions on topics of which they have little knowledge or experience.

The point of FullRes IRs is to add some room sound to your recordings and/or headphone playing. To do this you would mix conventional IRs with FullRes IRs.

When you put it like that, sounds like this wouldn't be necessarily any better than using the reverb block, just different. Rec Studio C on 100% has suited me well for years.
 

zafreemusic

Member
I still now and then watch the Bricasti video below, demonstrating tasteful use of verb.

Awesome share thanks, nice to see I do a similar method as 2 of my favorite producers Bricasti and Marc Daniel Nelison. Definitely gotta try the chamber>delay>chamber on a future mix.
 

biggness

Power User
I still now and then watch the Bricasti video below, demonstrating tasteful use of verb.

I've seen this before, and love it. Though this watch through I picked up on something I didn't before that I'm going to try:

Different reverbs for different frequencies.

Going to split and x-over or low pass/high pass my signal and send to two different verbs, then sum it back down. Gave it a really nice space.

Thanks.
 

phil92

Experienced
do we have a verdict yet on whether we will sacrifice a user bank for fullres IR support in the Mark I?

because I would gladly re-organise a few presets to play with this
 

favance

Power User
Correct. Algorithmic reverb is considered to be superior to convolution reverb because algorithmic reverb can be perceptually tuned.

From a perceptual standpoint the ideal reverb is not found in typical reverberant spaces. See the work done by Griesinger, et. al. on perceptual reverberation.

As usual this whole topic has been confounded with people chiming in their opinions on topics of which they have little knowledge or experience.

The point of FullRes IRs is to add some room sound to your recordings and/or headphone playing. To do this you would mix conventional IRs with FullRes IRs.

You can ALSO use FullRes IRs to do short-to-medium convolution reverbs. If you have some reverb IRs you can convert them to FullRes IR format and load them in the IR Player block and use that as a reverb.
I'm ready! Just cleared out the few IRs i had in my MK1 User2 IR library...
 

Denny99

Inspired
Some answers:

1. If the demand is great enough one possibility is to reduce the number of slots in the User IR banks and allocate the freed memory to FullRes slots.

I used to have a ton of user IRs. Ended up using very few to none, since I find the factory cabs to be great. I’ll give up some
User IRs slots to be able to use FullRes IRs.
 

Se7en

Inspired
...of course Mark I users want this! The one who are against then don't update the firmware =)
This is a deja vu from some years ago, I had to get the XL because Mark I and II suffered for lack of firmware space. But later on Cliff had a workaround (compressed firmware).
I bet 99.99% of users are not demanding 9999129 IRs in user_banks at performance.
I don't need any factory reserved stuff, but I see why they are needed but in these days most of users knows how to download stuff.
 
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