After 20 years, the Midi Mitigator still rules for songmode

[MisterE]

How very peculiar.
I've been looking at every midi pedal I could find and, although many now have IA capability, none comes close to my 20 year old Midi Mitigator when it comes to Song programming.
All pedals offer about 126 presets that can be arranged in song lists.
The Mitigator works different.
You can program 128 songs and per song you have 5 switches and per switch you can program any command as long as the total doesn't exceed 255 bytes. That's a maximum of 640 presets.
Now if only it had IA switches, it would be perfect.
You want to access every one of the 384 presets of the Axe-fx.... no problem.
Program a preset and turn effects on/off....no problem
Send sysex to change parameters like f.e; the harmonizer key, scale, voice1 and/or voice2....no problem.
Just a pity there's no editor for it since programming it manually is very labour intense.
I just wish someone would come up with a pedal where you would have the same capabilities of the Mitigator combined with programmable IA switches.
I can't image it would be so hard to do since in twenty years the memory for these pedals must have expanded enough and the processors are way better than back then.

 

[godprobe]

Re: After 20 years, the Midi Mitigator still rules for songlists

Yeah, ran across the Mitigator in my searches.
I agree, a lot of the older MIDI stuff is just better.
Same sort of deal with my (bought used) PMC10.

 

[MisterE]

What I don't get is that, with processors being much more powerfull, memory a lot cheaper, no one seems to be able to make the ideal midi pedalboard.
128 presets is very just not enough, especially if you like to make some combinations or want to be able to access all presets in for instance the Axe-Fx.
I don't know if you've taken a look at the Gordius editor but I do like the way it works.
On the Patch setup, you can create your patches with just about every midi command available, setup 32 stompboxes, 32 momentary switches and pedals.
Only drawback - and not a minor one for me - only 128 patches.
On The preset page, you can make the different combinations.
Again, only 186 combinations can be stored.
Then the banks are perfect - presets and IA can be combined.
For the songs, you can select any bank. Any bank can be used for any song - also perfect.
You also have two Direct banks with 13 switches. Seems ok to me too.
So, if only more memory could be added to expand the list of patches and presets, it would be perfect.

 

[Sebastian]

After reading in your other thread, I couldn't believe that the Gordius was limited to 128 patches.
So installed the Gordius editor software to find you're right.
I don't know if I'd ever seriously need more than 128, but I was quite surprised when I noticed that, given all the things you mentioned (cheap memory these days).

Regarding the bank/384 patch issue with the AFx:
If you want to change the bank, you have to do it only once! That means, when you tell it to change to bank B, all following program changes
will stick to this bank. So you only need three patches on your controller that will select the desired bank. When you switch to bank C the AFx will
remain on this bank until it receives a different bank change message. PCs 0-127 will map accordingly, i.e. PC 0 on bank A = patch 0 (or 1), PC 0 on bank C = patch 256.

Seb

 

[godprobe]

What I don't get is that, with processors being much more powerfull, memory a lot cheaper, no one seems to be able to make the ideal midi pedalboard.

Aye, if I were to make my own, I'd make it with this premise...

Each button can fire off a string of commands, limited only by the memory of the unit. The commands can be just about anything, not just MIDI.

...I've got a little Notepad doc detailing my thoughts much more extensively, but that sums up about 1/5th of the capability... maybe -- mine would be very geeky and a major PITA to program from scratch. Lots of macros and presets would have to be included for anyone normal to ever get anything done on it. But... I don't really have the time or technical know-how to build one in the first place, so that doesn't matter.

 

[xrist04]

I wish I still had mine. I loaned it to someone, who later offered to buy it, then never paid nor returned the unit.

http://www.stecrecords.com/gear/footped ... /index.php

 

[solo-act]

Will it do instant access to any preset?
Preset 1 = step on 1
Preset 324 = step on 3 then 2 then 4
That's what I've been looking for.

 

[ossandust]

After reading in your other thread, I couldn't believe that the Gordius was limited to 128 patches.
So installed the Gordius editor software to find you're right.
I don't know if I'd ever seriously need more than 128, but I was quite surprised when I noticed that, given all the things you mentioned (cheap memory these days).

I hear you loud and clear, Sebastian and MisterE I won't make the same mistake again!
I guess the actual reason for this can be found in the way the LittleGiant was born: originally just a module, aimed at extending the FCB1010 possibilities (after I got stuck with UnO development, due to hardware limitations). At that time I thought adding something like 20 times the original preset memory size of the FCB would be a nice expansion. 250 banks instead of 10. Lots of logic in order to work with "reusable" patches, which can be combined into presets, allowing you to have "n x m" possible combinations with only "n + m" patches, you know... With all this, I just overlooked the plain and simple requirement to allow straightforward setup of a large number of different patches, without all these relationships or dependencies between different patches.
With what I learned and heard, I am triggered to consider adding alternative approaches to a LittleGiant setup, taking into account these very relevant remarks. At least the current low level approach already uses "dynamic" memory allocation, so the idea of supporting a much larger number of patches shouldn't be a problem, except that it would need to be a new kind of setup, incompatible with the current setup format ( the obvious reason for the current limitations: every element in a setup is referenced as a single byte -> max. 256 different items of a type - like 128 patches + 32 stompboxes + 32 momentary effects + 16 expression pedal setups, .... )

Regarding the bank/384 patch issue with the AFx:
If you want to change the bank, you have to do it only once! That means, when you tell it to change to bank B, all following program changes
will stick to this bank. So you only need three patches on your controller that will select the desired bank. When you switch to bank C the AFx will
remain on this bank until it receives a different bank change message. PCs 0-127 will map accordingly, i.e. PC 0 on bank A = patch 0 (or 1), PC 0 on bank C = patch 256.

Seb

On a "higher level" (not related to the BankSelect MIDI commands), the LittleGiant supports similar ways to divide your setup into "groups". It allows to add for instance the messages for 8 different patches in each LittleGiant patch, and create 8 separate "group select" patches, which activate 1 of the 8 sub-patches within a patch. This can be done by using MIDI Channel variables (modifying the used MIDI channel for each of the 8 sub-patches on the fly). This transforms the 128 original patches into 8 select-patches + (120 x 8 =) 960 regular patches.
But again, I tried it out myself and it's a drag to set up. Simply providing possibility for 1024 independent patches instead is so much easier to use.

 

[MisterE]

Aha, another genius spotted
ossandust, creator of the unsurpassed Gordius Little Giant.

I won't make the same mistake again!

I don't think you made a mistake
From what i've learned, it's great and I can see how it evolved.
The Mitigator uses a different approach which was quite revolutionary then and now in that is departs from a song where all pedals start from banks with presets.

Will it do instant access to any preset?
Preset 1 = step on 1
Preset 324 = step on 3 then 2 then 4
That's what I've been looking for.

Take a look at the LG for this.
The Mitigator won't do this. But you can program a switch to select any preset.
The Mitigator is ideal for song-mode where you want to program up to five switches per song.
You can send any command, selecting presets turning effects on/off, changing parameters.....
But it doesn't have direct access.
That's where the little giant shines.
I find the layout, though unusual, very interesting and compact.
This is still my no1 choice if I were to buy a midi pedal today.
I'm looking into the variable thing to see if it can solve my problems.

First off, I've taken a look at how many songs are played with different harmonizer settings. That's what started my search.
'Till now, I need about 20 presets for this.
So that leaves about a hundred for different presets.
I'm sure that'll be more than enough.
The reason for posting this about the Mitigator is to see if I could motivate any of the pedal builders into coming up with a solution.
So far, ossandust, the creator of the Little Giant, has been the only one to reply and he's been great in proposing different solutions.
Thanks again for this.

 

[solo-act]

... you can program a switch to select any preset.....That's where the little giant shines.

If you don't mind me asking, how do you program the LG to have instant RANDOM access to presets over 128 or 256? Programming a preset per button, and scrolling banks seems clumsy.

In other words, if I were using the LG and I was at preset 46, and near the end of a song I need to instantly be ready to go to 248, or 114, or 312 with as little tap-dancing as possible, how do I do that?

Right now, on the midimate, I light up the instant access button and punch in the actual number. I only need to go from 1-77 now, and instant random access lets me do that. But I'd eventually like to get to over 200.

 

[ossandust]

... you can program a switch to select any preset.....That's where the little giant shines.

If you don't mind me asking, how do you program the LG to have instant RANDOM access to presets over 128 or 256? Programming a preset per button, and scrolling banks seems clumsy.

In order to avoid any confusion (and not claiming any functionality which is not ready and released):
today you can't do random access with the Little Giant. But it is on my todo-list, as you can read in a recent thread on the Gordius Yahoo list :
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/GO ... essage/474

The idea is to use 3 foot clicks in order to send any ProgramChange message, preceded with the necessary BankChange messages, so that you can type any number between 1 and 999 in order to directly select any sound (1-128 = bank1, 129-256 = bank2, 257-378 = bank3,...) on a predefined (customizable) MIDI channel.

 

[MisterE]

ooooops

but see, I told you he's quick
And he's got great ideas

 

[solo-act]

The idea is to use 3 foot clicks in order to send any ProgramChange message, preceded with the necessary BankChange messages, so that you can type any number between 1 and 999 in order to directly select any sound (1-128 = bank1, 129-256 = bank2, 257-378 = bank3,...) on a predefined (customizable) MIDI channel.

Perfect. The only thing I need beyond that is ability to route midi out of the footswitch down a usb out, and a midi out both located on the back of the footswitch, oh -- and I need those routing command assignable per patch.... ha ha ha ha ha ha ha (aint gonna happen)

However, instant access like that above is exactly what I'm looking for in a footswitch. Is that coming in '09 or 2010?

 

[MisterE]

And I'm getting a Big Little Giant

 

[Sebastian]

And I'm getting a Big Little Giant

So you made your final decision?

As I'll most probably choose Gordius for my next midi controller, I'm already thinking back and forth what to buy - LG or Big LG.
I'd love to have the extra switches and the piano switch layout; but then its price is quite a bit higher and it's almost as big as my FCB1010 and won't fit into a rack. :?
OTOH I think, with all the advanced programming that the LG is capable of, maybe I don't need as many switches and the LG would be fine...
:roll: :ugeek:

@ossandust: I agree with MisterE and don't think you made a mistake, that was not my intention; especially counting in the history of development you mentioned.
I'm sure I'd be fine with what's already possible, but it's great that you'll look into and improve it.
I have to say I'm veeery happy that there're people out there like you and Cliff Chase! Dealing with you guys makes being a musician even more joyful :mrgreen:

Seb

 

[ossandust]

The only thing I need beyond that is ability to route midi out of the footswitch down a usb out, and a midi out both located on the back of the footswitch, oh -- and I need those routing command assignable per patch.... ha ha ha ha ha ha ha (aint gonna happen)

No problem, solo-act, that's perfectly possible today.
Mainly because there are some great guys around writing cool free software, like MidiOX, MidiYoke, Bome's Midi Translator,... which let you do any routing or filtering you like, based on whatever content of the MIDI stream.
So indeed: just connect a USB cable between LittleGiant and PC (Windows, Mac, Linux). All generated MIDI messages are sent to the PC over USB, there you can use a MIDI routing tool like MidiYoke to forward the data to any application, and put a MIDI filtering application in the stream, and whatever MIDI which is making its way back to the MIDI-USB port will be forwarded by the LittleGiant to its regular MIDI OUT port.

However, instant access like that above is exactly what I'm looking for in a footswitch. Is that coming in '09 or 2010?

Well, you might have read on the Gordius forum that I am putting a temporary break on the feature enhancements. The result of constantly adding stuff was that I still didn't have a user manual covering all features, after a year of product availability. Now the (160-page) manual is ready, I don't want to start writing an addendum right away, but 2010, that's very far away! My guess is that by spring time (2009) that first addendum will be a fact...

 

[ossandust]

and it's almost as big as my FCB1010

One of the recent changes I did to the PC editor, was on the global setup page, where you can select the different LittleGiant types and connected third-party slave controllers. I corrected the pictures in that screen to use exactly the same scale, so now you get a good comparison of the sizes. Have a look at a screenshot here : http://www.gordius.be/pics/LGCC.jpg
You'll see there still is quite a size difference between Big Little Giant and FCB1010. The remarkable thing is, when looking at those pictures: hard to believe at first sight, but switch spacing is exactly the same on all products: 7cm.

 

[solo-act]

No problem, solo-act,.....just connect a USB cable between LittleGiant and PC (Windows, Mac, Linux). All generated MIDI messages are sent to the PC over USB, ...and whatever MIDI which is making its way back to the MIDI-USB port will be forwarded by the LittleGiant to its regular MIDI OUT port....My guess is that by spring time (2009) that first addendum will be a fact...

Holy cow... that's pretty much what I need but I might not be able to read the small text on that display. *EDIT* I just saw the screen on the forum and the text is huge....hmm I'll get around to reading the manual and PM you if I have any questions.

You know, I have to admit. I saw the little giant when I was researching footswitches, but as soon as I saw no instant access I moved on. With the small footprint, usb out.

 

[Sebastian]

and it's almost as big as my FCB1010

One of the recent changes I did to the PC editor, was on the global setup page, where you can select the different LittleGiant types and connected third-party slave controllers. I corrected the pictures in that screen to use exactly the same scale, so now you get a good comparison of the sizes. Have a look at a screenshot here : http://www.gordius.be/pics/LGCC.jpg
You'll see there still is quite a size difference between Big Little Giant and FCB1010. The remarkable thing is, when looking at those pictures: hard to believe at first sight, but switch spacing is exactly the same on all products: 7cm.

I was not comparing by pictures, I compared by specs. And I meant only the length in the first place (LG-X 55 cm, FCB 67 cm). All in all I'm sure the LG-X has a
remarkably smaller footprint than the FCB and can be transported easier. I just have to make up my mind if I must have a controller to fit into a rack or not.
Thanks for your response, though.

Seb

 

[Matman]

how do you program the LG to have instant RANDOM access to presets over 128 or 256?

I emailed with Xavier today. It's really funny you should bring up random access, because I put it on his wishlist about 2 weeks ago, wishing for the same feature I knew on the Digitech PMC-10 (which I think holds the title you give to the Midigator...). Anyway, he told me that the feature has been moved "way up" on his master list and should appear soon. We talked about having numbers higher than 127 resolve into Bank/Patch automatically... We'll see!

What strikes me as interesting though, is that you can actually keep track in your head of so many patches!!! I can't manage more than a bank in my own wet ram, especially while expected to also keep playing! What I did do was to move my favorites to slots 1-100.

Have fun,