Advice needed: Getting all patches to be the same volume

S

screamtone

Member
Can someone point me in the right direction for getting all of my patches to be the same volume? When I'm writing patches, I'm generally cutting the volume on the amp block with the level control in the mix section. I'm finding that I need to pull that down way below unity (-0.0) when I'm trying to write a patch that needs the amp master up high to get the sag kicking in really good (like a Plexi sound). My volumes jump all over the place when I switch patches more than I like. I need a method to make them all consistent when I writing them.

I've got a feeling I'm going about this all wrong. Is there a better way to this? Is there any sort of "build your own patches at the proper level" tutorial that anyone knows of? Tell me what I'm doing wrong.
 
I use an SPL meter(actually I have an SPL meter app in my iphone too which works pretty well).
 
I don't know if I have the best method, but this is how I do it. First of all, I figure that, in general, I want my clean patches to be a little quieter than my crunch patches and my crunch patches a little quieter than my lead patches. This is not a hard and fast rule, but a rule of thumb. How I achieve this is simple. I build my patches while routing the Axe into my DAW where I can use its meters to check the levels. Since I use my patches to record in addition to playing live, I aim to have my clean patches peaking around -14dbs, my crunch patches peaking around -11 or -10 dbs and my lead patches peaking around -8 or 9 dbs. Then I adjust by ear.
 
screamtone said:
Can someone point me in the right direction for getting all of my patches to be the same volume? When I'm writing patches, I'm generally cutting the volume on the amp block with the level control in the mix section. I'm finding that I need to pull that down way below unity (-0.0) when I'm trying to write a patch that needs the amp master up high to get the sag kicking in really good (like a Plexi sound). My volumes jump all over the place when I switch patches more than I like. I need a method to make them all consistent when I writing them.

I've got a feeling I'm going about this all wrong. Is there a better way to this? Is there any sort of "build your own patches at the proper level" tutorial that anyone knows of? Tell me what I'm doing wrong.
Click to expand...

That's pretty much how I have done it. Only I start with the cleans and set my volumes where they are just below digital peek with the hottest pickup's and strumming force being used. Then I setup the dirty channels to work with that volume wise. So when preset changes are made it has a nice transition between them. You also have to be aware of the levels in the effect and cab blocks as well.

Edit: spelling and grammar... I really need to proof read my post befor I hit submit. :oops:
 
Sixstring said:
screamtone said:
Can someone point me in the right direction for getting all of my patches to be the same volume? When I'm writing patches, I'm generally cutting the volume on the amp block with the level control in the mix section. I'm finding that I need to pull that down way below unity (-0.0) when I'm trying to write a patch that needs the amp master up high to get the sag kicking in really good (like a Plexi sound). My volumes jump all over the place when I switch patches more than I like. I need a method to make them all consistent when I writing them.

I've got a feeling I'm going about this all wrong. Is there a better way to this? Is there any sort of "build your own patches at the proper level" tutorial that anyone knows of? Tell me what I'm doing wrong.
Click to expand...

That's pretty much how I have done it. Only I start with the cleans and set my volumes there just below digital peek with hottest pickup's and strumming force being used. Then I setup the dirty channels to work with that volume wise. So when preset changes are made it a nice transition between them. You also have to be aware of the levels in the effect and cab blocks as well.
Click to expand...

+2
 
Scott Peterson said:
Sixstring said:
screamtone said:
Can someone point me in the right direction for getting all of my patches to be the same volume? When I'm writing patches, I'm generally cutting the volume on the amp block with the level control in the mix section. I'm finding that I need to pull that down way below unity (-0.0) when I'm trying to write a patch that needs the amp master up high to get the sag kicking in really good (like a Plexi sound). My volumes jump all over the place when I switch patches more than I like. I need a method to make them all consistent when I writing them.

I've got a feeling I'm going about this all wrong. Is there a better way to this? Is there any sort of "build your own patches at the proper level" tutorial that anyone knows of? Tell me what I'm doing wrong.
Click to expand...

That's pretty much how I have done it. Only I start with the cleans and set my volumes there just below digital peek with hottest pickup's and strumming force being used. Then I setup the dirty channels to work with that volume wise. So when preset changes are made it a nice transition between them. You also have to be aware of the levels in the effect and cab blocks as well.
Click to expand...

+2
Click to expand...

Hey Scott...

Are you aware if there is an issue with the level structure when setting the levels up in that manner from block to block or is it irrelevant.
 
Pretty much agree with posts above. Some extra points to note:

Yes, amp level is a good way to adjust patch level, but not if you're using overdrive in later blocks, such as cab drive or delay drive. In that case, the overall amp level will affect the amount of following overdrive, so set that to taste, then adjust patch level with the patch master volume.

Yes, set your clean levels to jsut below clipping first because these have the widest dynamic range. Then adjust other peceived levels to match (or boost/cut) as required. Adjustments will be more accurate if you can do this at typical playing volumes than bedroom levels. Partly because patches with different tone balances will have different relative volumes at low vs high levels (Fletcher-Munsen) and also because at high levels you may change your picking intensity which will affect clean patches more than overdriven patches.

An SPL meter might be helpful for getting volumes in the same ballpark, but I'd be curious to know its frequency response, although even that won't compenaste for the Fletcher-Muson effect, your speaker efficiency or response characteristsics. For example, a bedroom patch with exaggerated lows & highs will sound even more exaggerated at high volume and despite that, likely to be completely lost in a band mix. I find that patches that have a low-mid bias at home sound best on stage.

Hope this helps
;)
 
Setting your levels by matching the levels with a db meter in a DAW or an iPhone or whatever to all be the same may get you in the ballpark, but unless all your patches have the same exact frequency response, they will not sound balanced to your ears. As we all know, our ears are more sensitive to some frequencies than others, so just balancing things db-wise doesn't mean they will sound balanced to your ears thru your gear. 120db of 1khz is a lot louder (and irritating) to your ears than 120db of 40hz.

Setting them up initially with the db approach is a good start. But playing them all thru your gear @ the volume you will be using them is going to be the only way to get them matched up to your ears.
 
Scott Peterson said:
Sixstring said:
screamtone said:
Can someone point me in the right direction for getting all of my patches to be the same volume? When I'm writing patches, I'm generally cutting the volume on the amp block with the level control in the mix section. I'm finding that I need to pull that down way below unity (-0.0) when I'm trying to write a patch that needs the amp master up high to get the sag kicking in really good (like a Plexi sound). My volumes jump all over the place when I switch patches more than I like. I need a method to make them all consistent when I writing them.

I've got a feeling I'm going about this all wrong. Is there a better way to this? Is there any sort of "build your own patches at the proper level" tutorial that anyone knows of? Tell me what I'm doing wrong.
Click to expand...

That's pretty much how I have done it. Only I start with the cleans and set my volumes there just below digital peek with hottest pickup's and strumming force being used. Then I setup the dirty channels to work with that volume wise. So when preset changes are made it a nice transition between them. You also have to be aware of the levels in the effect and cab blocks as well.
Click to expand...

+2
Click to expand...

+3
 
What I do is put a filter block (set on null) at the end of my chain (or maybe before the cab block) and set the level there instead of in the amp block. Works pretty well for me.
 
Deltones said:
What I do is put a filter block (set on null) at the end of my chain (or maybe before the cab block) and set the level there instead of in the amp block. Works pretty well for me.
Click to expand...

you don't need to do that. You can go to the layout-mixer menu. Go to the main volume and adjust it down from there. Then you don't need a filter for volume control (unless you just want it for a boost).
 
javajunkie said:
Deltones said:
What I do is put a filter block (set on null) at the end of my chain (or maybe before the cab block) and set the level there instead of in the amp block. Works pretty well for me.
Click to expand...

you don't need to do that. You can go to the layout-mixer menu. Go to the main volume and adjust it down from there. Then you don't need a filter for volume control (unless you just want it for a boost).
Click to expand...

This layout-mixer menu would be the right-most region on Lars old editor right?
 
Deltones said:
javajunkie said:
Deltones said:
What I do is put a filter block (set on null) at the end of my chain (or maybe before the cab block) and set the level there instead of in the amp block. Works pretty well for me.
Click to expand...

you don't need to do that. You can go to the layout-mixer menu. Go to the main volume and adjust it down from there. Then you don't need a filter for volume control (unless you just want it for a boost).
Click to expand...

This layout-mixer menu would be the right-most region on Lars old editor right?
Click to expand...

Yes.
 
I've found that a SPL meter helps get into the ballpark too, but it can't account for the EQ curves. Best case in point is the Marshallish amps and the Mesa type amps. The Mesa-type amps will push an SPL identical to the Marshall type amps but yet the way I hear it, they still don't balance. I think that's because the Mesa amps push more bass frequencies which output higher SPLs relatively speaking. Either way, I decided to assign the VOL INCR/VOL DECR to my floor controller to help fine tune as I play live. I am using my cleanest patch for the reference point.
 
I play with backing tracks and each backing track has a unique axe-fx rig built for the song.

So that's a complex situation right there: lots of presets, lots of tonal variation, and lots of locations where a preset must sit within the mix depending on the song (forward, middle, behind other instruments etc).

However, the tracks provide a consistent a band mix gig to gig and that makes it easy to set the output, but it still takes a while.
Here's how I do it:
-- I don't put distortion blocks after the amp.
-- Patch output is set with the "level" knob in the amp block
-- Final output on the last tab in the layout page is set at zero
-- Any patch with zero on the layout page output means I'm happy with the patch level
-- If I'm unhappy with a patch level, I make a TEMPORARY change at home or at the gig using the final output in the layout page
-- If a temporary change works at a few gigs, I transfer that Db change to the level knob in the amp block and zero out the output in the layout page

I can't do that for blocks that come on during solos, so I just muddle my way through that.

On firmware upgrades, I change all affected patches where needed and make a TEMPORARY change to output volume via the layout page. Patches I'm happy with after a few gigs get "zeroed" out, and I make tweaks to others at home & gigs until I can zero them out.
 
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