Advanced Alternate Picking Question For Those Who "Think Too Much"

Okay, that's some really helpful advise. So I'll get set on slowing way down on those upstrokes until they're smoother, because right now when I inside pick beginning with an upstroke, I think I'm overworking on making the upstroke (maybe trying to compensate for the lack of "snap" as you aptly called it), and if I can relax that stroke more and keep the motion light and even, then maybe I can up the tempo a little, and keep even motions of the wrist.

Does that seem right?

Re Dimeola, the little example near the end of the vid of strumming is a constant inspiration for how space and opportunity there is between those fast and dully, evenly played notes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HIY_IPIvCI
 
jesussaddle said:
So I'll get set on slowing way down on those upstrokes until they're smoother, because right now when I inside pick beginning with an upstroke, I think I'm overworking on making the upstroke (maybe trying to compensate for the lack of "snap" as you aptly called it), and if I can relax that stroke more and keep the motion light and even, then maybe I can up the tempo a little, and keep even motions of the wrist.

Does that seem right?
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Yes, it does. That will head you down the right path.

I'm going to throw a handful of ideas at you. Scan through them. Don't worry about having to wrap your head around all of them — road time with your pick is way more important than memorizing my ramblings. Just pick one or two ideas that seem to make the most sense to you, and carry them into your practice.

Your two-string, four-note example from earlier in the thread will make a great exercise to help nail down this picking thing.

Slow it down until you can play it right. If you don't do that, you're just practicing the errors. Practice works, and if you practice the mistakes, you'll get really, really good at making them.

Once you can play it correctly at a very slow pace, speed it up in very tiny increments until you make a mistake. Then slow it back down until you can get it correctly again.

Always end your practice by playing it correctly at least once, even if you're tired and you have to make it stupid-slow. Your body remembers best what it did last; let it remember the right way.

That cranky old piano teacher from down the road got it right: you need a metronome to get the most out of your practice. It tells you how fast you're really going. And it tells you whether you're picking the right notes in time, and not just picking the right notes. It also helps measure your progress as you speed things up. There's a slick little program calle Weird Metronome that will fit the bill nicely if you dan't already have one.

Trust your practice. It's the single most reliable aspect of guitar playing.

​
Check back after a few practices and let me know how it's going.
 
I'll follow your advice Rex. I'll see how it goes during the next week or so. BTW, economy picking that pattern I described is a LOT easier, but starting on an upstroke is even more easy than using economy picking for me. I could do the lick repetitively, so far, at 145 bpm (16th notes) with economy picking, and probably around 160 bpm when beginning with an upstroke, but only about 108 bpm cleanly and continuously, when beginning on the downstroke as was my original challenge.

I'd still like to know from players whether this is some typical mechanical issue, or more of a bad habit situation. If you're reading this and try it, please let me know if its much harder to play it starting on the upstroke, or downstroke (see the lick below). But I don't think the mechanism is easy for players to refer to in their usual guitarist-speak. It ends up being mis-described. You can't simply say its an upstroke, or inside picking, and really nail what's going on. Joseph's article linked to in the last post does refer to it specifically. I think both Gilbert and Petrucci have mentioned something about beginning on an upstroke being easier often times, but I haven't seen a full discussion of why, or if its really just that when the upstroke is as an inside picking move its harder for some players to accurately and quickly navigate that, etc.

Rex said:
@Joey: I just checked out your excerpt. That's a lot of good information packed into four short pages. Thanks!
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+1 Re. Joseph Goldstein excerpt.

This is the part that really touches on what I've been asking about:

Note: I think in the below quote "higher string" means lower guage, and lower physically when you're holding the guitar to play it. E.g. B is a higher string than G. - jesussaddle]

" [a] When moving to a higher string, after just having executed an up-pick, the motion needed to accomplish a down-pick is often a little bit awkward. When moving to a lower string , after just executing a down-pick, the motion needed for an up-pick is often clumsey as well. One way around this awkwardness is to play passages like this with reverse alternate picking. I.e. With duple rhythms, down-beats are played with up-picks and up-beats are played with down-picks."

My lick is an even number of notes on an even number of strings, played repeatedly, so literally its either [a], or repeatedly.

[a] and are both inside picking. For me, inside picking moving towards the higher strings is harder.

Again, I want to emphasize that my repeating lick has an equal number of upstrokes and downstrokes, and an even number of inside and outside picking motions. That introduces both inside picking situation [a] and inside picking situation in the same lick, depending on whether its started on a downstroke or upstroke. That means that because [a] (where I start the lick on a downstroke) is more difficult for me than , what makes it that way must be what parts of the lick use the pinky side of the wrist or thumb side of the wrist, and whether they are inside or outside of string motions. I tried changing the accent, and permutating the lick so the 3rd and 4th notes became the 1st and 2nd, to no avail.

This part is exactly what I'm experiencing: "after just having executed an up-pick, the motion needed to accomplish a down-pick is often a little bit awkward." And apparently "reverse alternate picking" (the terms are new to me), is the name for starting the strong beat on the upstroke, which is what I've been saying is much easier, for the pattern I've been describing. And since Joseph mentions it as being clumsy FIRST, I really, really want to assume that MORE people find it clumsy, or MORE clumsy : ) (cuz that means I gots friends).

Applying what Joseph says does make sense since the original tough to play lick I described, is NOT reverse alternate picking according to this, but plain old alternate picking. Reversing it WOULD solve it, but then I would need to think about it, rather than just correct the poorly learned movements. But if this is a clumsiness is physical, it will help to understand it, and if its mental, then probably not a big majority of players experience it (specifically [a] above, and not .

So what I would like to know, is how many guitarists find this lick I describe as clumsy to repeat over and over, when played fast.

Again, the lick is:

jesussaddle said:
HERE's THE LICK * * *
Downstroke on high E (use any accessible fret) then upstroke on high E, then downstroke on B string, then upstroke on B, and repeat (the lick is only difficult because it repeats one, or especially two or more times; if one pauses or adds notes to the end it ceases to be as difficult). Frets are not important, so long as one changes frets when crossing to the next string.
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I'd really like to know if any of you also find it more clumsy, and to what degree.

And now this brings me to the main question, if its more clumsy, then WHY is it more clumsy? I hope it has to do with the fact that sloppiness gets reinforced.

I hope I haven't made a blunder in here that makes all this nonsense...

Sorry again for the long posts. I don't give up easily.
 
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I see what motion you are talking about, and I used to have a big problem with this, so I actually tried this lick the other night just to see what you were saying, and I'm only saying this to encourage YOU: I was able to do that at 145bpm. And it felt pretty relaxed, and I couldn't do this a few months ago. What I suggest as far as how to practice this and beat it, is to actually start on the B string and play 2 notes starting with a downstroke and then just play ONE note on the E string ending with a down. So where it's like this: B-down, B-up, E-down. Just do it like 3 sixteenth notes and stop and then do it again. This will get your hand used to focusing on that up to down motion on the E string.

Make sure that you do it relaxed. Probably part of the problem is that you are "worried" when you go from that up to the down and it makes you whack the last "up" a little too much. I could be wrong but that's at least a possibility. And definitely do it slow first, but then after practicing it slow for a bit, do like Shawn Lane says and just "fracture the process" and go into a speed that you don't even think you can do at all like 160 and that will break the mental "rut" of being stuck at 145.
 
I'm not really sure what the OP is after anymore.
Look, if you're using a pick then you've only got 2 choices: it's either going to be a down-stroke or an up-stroke.
Making that decision intelligently is what this all about.

Rex has already given you the economy or hybrid picking solution to your exercise.
D-U-U-D repeat.
It may take some practice doing that very slowly before you'll develop the surety to be able to play it faster.
The other options are:
1. Strict alternate picking: D-U-D-U repeat
The problem here is in the return to the high E string on the repeat.
2. Strict reverse alternate picking:
U-D-U-D repeat
The problem here is the move from the high E to the B string.

I.e. They all have problems.
That's what practice is about.
Pick one and stick with it.
The single most powerful picking technique, IMO, is strict alternate picking.
If you could only have one picking technique, then that's the one to have.
The other picking schemes all have an element of alternate picking to them anyway.
Eg. Being a good alternate picker is a prerequisite to being a good economy picker.

I tell all my students to first practice things with strict alternate picking, then with strict reverse alternate picking.
The reverse stuff is good for just developing your conscious control of the picking direction and to learn how to make your up-strokes sound as strong as your downstrokes.
*Then* I tell them to try it with some form of economy picking.
 
Demolition Man said:
I see what motion you are talking about, and I used to have a big problem with this, so I actually tried this lick the other night just to see what you were saying, and I'm only saying this to encourage YOU: I was able to do that at 145bpm. And it felt pretty relaxed, and I couldn't do this a few months ago. What I suggest as far as how to practice this and beat it, is to actually start on the B string and play 2 notes starting with a downstroke and then just play ONE note on the E string ending with a down. So where it's like this: B-down, B-up, E-down. Just do it like 3 sixteenth notes and stop and then do it again. This will get your hand used to focusing on that up to down motion on the E string.

Make sure that you do it relaxed. Probably part of the problem is that you are "worried" when you go from that up to the down and it makes you whack the last "up" a little too much. I could be wrong but that's at least a possibility. And definitely do it slow first, but then after practicing it slow for a bit, do like Shawn Lane says and just "fracture the process" and go into a speed that you don't even think you can do at all like 160 and that will break the mental "rut" of being stuck at 145.
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Thanks so much. You're exactly right. I went up a little bit, to about 127 bpm, which I could almost do. Then I pushed it up to 145, which was ridiculously sloppy. And in reading your first paragraph above I can tell you that was my exact conclusion. Its a little two much tension developing instead of focusing on aiming, and that came about because my hand angle and position was trying to compensate during this particular stroke for all the years I've played.

As for what my concern is in posting, its to find out how to eliminate what I intuitively knew was an error in my playing, as opposed to strictly a genuine mechanical problem. Its an exercise to cross a hurdle. Hopefully it will strengthen an aspect of playing that is fairly common.

Sure, I could economy pick, but there are times when I've got to think about that. And I can go in and figure out what the easier way to play something is and learn patterns that use that. But to play jazz melodically, and improvise, would be more fun and musical than to play a lot of worked out lines. Alternate picking requires no thought, and with that weakness we've been talking about reduced and then eliminated, there's steadily less tension. Al Dimeola seems to be able to improvise pretty well with it, and to do so over chords that require a little thought just to avoid wrong notes. Adding a lot of thought about picking direction is fine too, but its a little overwhelming. Once I can play a little jazz with alternate picking, more economy picking can be added, but maybe the accentuated notes in quick lines like Dimeola plays are hard to nail with economy picking? I dunno.
 
The thing about economy picking is that the left hand fingering and the right hand picking scheme have to be coordinated.
Change the fingering and the picking scheme changes too.

With strict alternate picking, the pick direction is really determined by the timing (downbeats = down-strokes - upbeats = up-strokes, etc.), not by the lh fingering.
Change the fingering and the picking scheme remains the same.
So, IMO, since we usually visualize our note choices with our left hand, alternate picking has distinct advantages for an improviser.

But anybody who is playing really fast isn't really completely improvising.
In order to play that fast they have to be playing stuff they already know quite well.
If asked about it they may insist that they just made it up but in my experience that would usually be some sort of a misconception they have about how they got where they are or they might just be lying. lol
Now I'm not saying that every note in a fast line needs to be worked out beforehand, but the components of that line usually have been worked out beforehand.
We just put the various components together differently every time we play and that's IMO what improvising really is.
These "components" can as small as simple intervals that we are familiar with and string together in various ways or they can be as complex as fully worked out strings of 1/8s or 1/16s or whatever.
But in order to play them quickly we have to already know them on some level of intimacy.
Now, if you've worked long and hard at playing lots and lots of your musical ideas using economy picking, as opposed to alternate picking, then those ideas - including the economy picking - will surely come out in your improvising.

But the bottom line is that economy picking is predicated on alternate picking anyway, so you have to start by being a good alternate picker anyway.

I've seen interviews with Dimeola where he disses the guys who 'stoop' to using economy picking or even sweeping/raking.
He feels that if you work on alternate picking to the point where those little snafus we've been talking about have been transcended, that the sweeping thing isn't needed.
One way to practice getting past these snafus is to use wider string skips.
Eg. Play a note on the high E string with a down-stroke followed by an up-stroke on the G string or the D string or the A string or the low E string.
Etc., etc.
Get really good at string skips like that with a change in pick direction, and you'll be able to handle anything.... in theory. lol
 
Great link Tom. Paul Gilbert with Racer X was the shred-king, I remember listening to that when I was in college and thinking "I need to head to the woodshed".
 
Thanks, Tom. There's good information in that video. It's interesting that, for the licks Mr. Gilbert uses in the video, strict alternate picking is also the most economical way to play it. Alternate and economy picking, all rolled into one.
 
Thanks for the thread guys. So basically, if you can completely master alternate picking then you're golden. It takes all of the thinking out of the equation and you're set free (eventually).
 
Doug said:
So basically, if you can completely master alternate picking then you're golden. It takes all of the thinking out of the equation and you're set free (eventually).
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I wish it were that simple. As Joey pointed out, alternate picking is the skill to have "if you could only have one picking technique." Fortunately, we can have more than one technique. If a piece of music has you approaching the physical limit of what your hands are capable of, you'll need to use a more economical technique to be able to pull it off.

Bottom line: improving your ability with any picking technique will improve your playing. I agree with Joey that strict alternate picking is the one to learn (but not necessarily master) before starting to learn other techniques.
 
Thanks for the Gilbert Video, the guys a good teacher and he always seems to be having fun in his videos.

Much obliged to all you guys for straightening this out. Its amazing how fumbly I was on that. In retrospect it seems obvious, but I just assumed it was one of those things that was a solid wall for everyone. After realizing its not that hard for some of you I REALLY slowed it down and practiced slow, and now my hands are no longer doing this awkward accommodation thing they had been doing when attempting to play those kind of picking sequences. Occasionally I will go back to the habit, and I just re-enforce the correction from your last several posts (several people were very helpful.) It was one of those "permanent errors" in my playing, and changing that one thing has lots of positive repercussions.
 
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Way to go, jesussaddle! Ain't it lovely when those walls come a-tumblin' down?
 
Its very cool. Now I'm gonna branch out from that basic picking technique stuff (just practicing it maybe an hour per session). I wanna learn to choose notes relative to chords and chord progressions. But I habitually approach learning by straying way off the appropriate path. For example, the ii - V- I maj7 is something I can play OKAY over, and I should move on to something a little harder. But I picked something that is maybe a little TOO advanced. Iwas I having trouble playing something reasonable over a simple bass line, that IMO should naturally invoke a i - bVI maj7 - V. It was just the root of the i, then the P5 and then root of the VI and V respectively.

I began hearing and wanting to play the maj 7 degree over the i minor chord (like a harmonic minor scale). To stray further from normalcy, I next wanted to hear the tonic's root and then the tonic's maj 7 over the bVI maj7 chord (this is the M3 and m3 of that Maj 7 chord, I think, so basically I'm starting with a major 7th chord, and then momentarily making a minor major 7 chord out of it. I should progress gradually from a basic sound, of course, but I get curious and the next thing you know I'm hearing something bizarre but intriguing. Its like I have one little musical angel on one side, saying go back and learn to play "Takin' Care O' Business" By Randy Bachman.

But there's a devil with these kaleidoscopic eyes saying, "just jump, its right there waiting and you think that BTO stuff is WAY boring anyway! Don't waste the opportunity, jesussaddle. Look into the pool of unused notes...."

But this all began re the subject of "Thinking TOO MuCH" and I know there are people who would say, stop thinking, and just hear and sing those notes and learn where they are on the guitar. I'd like to do that, but songs I like are sometimes the ones that are the hardest for me to try and sing. Those notes are way delicate and only sound right in just the right places and times.

As an example, you know, that song Drifting, by James Hendrix, "Drifting, on a sea of forgotten...." I always get pitch-ignorant around the word "teardrops". I can even hear it in my head, but when I try to vocalize it, its always not quite right. Its like the chord choice under that word is so creative that its a little un-hearable (or maybe its really basic and common, but not for me).

YouTube - JIMI HENDRIX VIDEO: Drifting 3:46

Here's another twist, probably the opposite, with what I think is a cool melody, but that has some well placed and unexpected chord choices, against what would maybe be a common melody (maybe?).

YouTube - Randy Crawford - Hoping love will last

Anyone else have any examples? Melodies and chord progressions that rise to the top?

I figure I'll try to learn some of these sounds I have trouble hearing now, about an hour a night or more.
 
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When you hit the pitch-ignorance wall, and your voice isn't cooperating, try picking out the melody on your guitar. Sometimes that's a lot easier.

I wasn't familiar with "drifting" until I followed the link you posted. So I picked up my guitar and started picking individual notes of the first line of the melody. Here's what I found:

  • The first word, "Drift-ing," is two syllables, sung on G and Bb.
  • "Tear-drops" is sung the same way, but shifted a whole step down: F and Ab.
I think the tune would feel more familiar on a guitar tuned a half-step below concert pitch, so you could start out on an E chord.
 
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Thanks once again for the good advice. Yes, that's exactly the part of the "Drifting" melody. I think you're right, I should practice playing the melody on guitar. Then maybe as Pebber Brown says with respect to throwing chords up, as opposed to putting one finger on the neck at a time, I should pause, and then try and hear the notes that go with just those two chords that accompany the words...
 
That's a good approach. The nice thing about figuring out a melody on the guitar is that there are only 12 options — 12 notes in the chromatic scale. If you try a note and it's not the right one, there are only 11 more to try. With your voice, there are all kinds of in-between notes you can hit (and miss) with.
 
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