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Accurate low-end in Mesa Boogie Mark IIC+, Mark V, JP-2C

jin1995x

Inspired
I have almost the same sound with my mesa 412 as a load.
Maybe a little more attack ok...
I love nasty sounds so it a sm57 close to the speaker.
A Real amp miked sound like that (and not like méga sub bass I here too often)
I just pushed a little bit too much the GEQ to show the attack.
I m using a strat too ;) it s not a modern guitar with a lot of bass
sound one sounded way way better.
 


could you find which one is the Axe FX 3?

I can't tell based on the low-end alone in this case, but only because both samples lack bass. The sweet spot for a Mark series amp is where the bass adds saturation or "chewiness" without flubbing out. In my opinion, neither of your samples had the saturation characteristic of an optically dialed Mark-series amp.

EDIT: I meant "optimally", not "optically".
 
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Tonic

Inspired
I can't tell based on the low-end alone in this case, but only because both samples lack bass. The sweet spot for a Mark series amp is where the bass adds saturation or "chewiness" without flubbing out. In my opinion, neither of your samples had the saturation characteristic of an optically dialed Mark-series amp.
It was just to show that model is close the Real amp.
The JP2C is not as tight as the Mark 5.

In a mix your guitar with too much bass will be flubby because your bass is there for "bass".
You ll be surprised if you hear isolated guitars in a mix.
When you cut bass, your guitar jump in the front of a mix.
To me all sounds you have posted have too much bass and unusable in a mix like that.
Of course Petrucci sound good (but I have never heard the Axe sounded like the vid on stage).
 
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GreatGreen

Power User
For the solutions that have been offered, I'm not certain we're either talking about the same thing, or hearing the same thing.
From the YT clips that Governator and I posted, we're talking about that "woomm woomm", for lack of a better way to describe it in words, that happens immediately after the palm-muted note is picked, that does not exist when JP does those "chuck chuck" palm mutes, that he even mentions are totally choked off. I'm hoping we're first in agreement that that's the issue of focus. I don't think you don't have to run the real amp so loud that it requires an attenuator, and mike it up and use a certain IR to get that choked-off sound. The amp simply reacts that way.

So it seems to me it should also be attainable in the Axe, just in the amp block, without needing a certain IR to make it go away.
I believe, and I could be wrong, that no amount of adjustments afterwards, can remove that rubber band-sounding, after-note 'flub', nor should be necessary. I think it may have something to do with the way the amp is modeled. I've had this concern for a while myself, but chose to work around it by using different amps, since I can't seem to get rid of it. I've tried reducing the bass extremely low, then making it up in the GEQ, as has been suggested, but that doesn't eliminate it, and then the overall tone loses its full bottom.

If it turns out that I end up using a certain block in a certain way, that's after the amp (or maybe even before, although a real JP2C doesn't need a drive pedal to give it that tight, crunch tone, imo), that gets rid of that lingering sound, then I will have learned something valuable, and appreciate it, but it will probably still seem to me like, for example, trying to fix a particularly mid-range, 'honky'-sounding pickup by EQ'ing out those frequencies, rather than replacing it with a better-suited PU.

I see what you're getting at. Honestly I think the difference between the slowly resonating "woomm woomm" sounds and the tight, stocatto "chuck chuck" sounds, assuming all other factors are equal, is probably mostly in the hands. Specifically it's in how hard your right hand is muting the strings and how quickly your left hand mutes all the strings completely after a palm mute. You can't resonate what isn't there, so you won't get a "woomm" sound if your hands have completely muted the strings, and you won't get a tight "chuck" sound if you're muting the strings lightly enough to let them resonate after the pick attack.

Aside from that, you might be able to get a more explosive sounding chuck if you turn up the master a bit to excite the poweramp a bit more, but I think the majority of what you're talking about comes from the hands.
 

TSJMajesty

Fractal Fanatic
I see what you're getting at. Honestly I think the difference between the slowly resonating "woomm woomm" sounds and the tight, stocatto "chuck chuck" sounds, assuming all other factors are equal, is probably mostly in the hands. Specifically it's in how hard your right hand is muting the strings and how quickly your left hand mutes all the strings completely after a palm mute.
You just gave me an idea: I went back and watched JP do those low B chunk chunks very closely, specifically to watch the last one, to see if that woomm woomm comes thru, or if he instantly mutes it. And get this- he's clearly letting his left hand pinky rest slightly against the low string, on each one he does. He's saying that the amp is responsible for choking it off, but ehhhh, not entirely. ;)
Issue solved as far as I'm concerned.
 

cardinal

Inspired
Not sure if super relevant here but to the extent people are trying to mimic clips using a Majesty, I thought the one I played had very hot and tight pickups. (I happen to like really high output pickups). Trying to recreate that with more moderate pickups might be difficult.
 

mattrg470

New Member
I'm not saying I've cracked this by any means, but consider the Proximity setting in the Cab block.
With a typical 57 close mic and 121 mic, I will set the 121 to a proximity of around 1.5 - 2.5 to increase the "bloom"

Its a handy feature to try for sculpting the bass frequencies in a slightly different way.
 

My name is mud

Fractal Fanatic
The JP2C is not as tight as the Mark 5.
Whaaaat?
I ve tried the 5 before purchasing the jp and their is no match . Clean is way better in the jp and the sound got globally more everything and it’s ultra tight if you want it like that .

For the rest yes the musicman jp or others signature models got very hot pickups
 

Tonic

Inspired
Whaaaat?
I ve tried the 5 before purchasing the jp and their is no match . Clean is way better in the jp and the sound got globally more everything and it’s ultra tight if you want it like that .

For the rest yes the musicman jp or others signature models got very hot pickups
I have had both during two years ;)
Mark 5 is tighter and JP is a little bit looser and less dry sounding

But yeah I kept the JP because i found it better and less flat sounding
 

TSJMajesty

Fractal Fanatic
On the Dimarzio site, the Dreamcatcher (Majesty- Bridge) is in the list of "High Power" PU's, but out of 36, there are 23 that are higher output.
And the Rainmaker neck PU is quite a bit lower output. It's in the "Medium Output" list. So I wouldn't even call that a hot PU.
So that's the Majesty. I wouldn't characterize them as very hot. They're hot, but many others are much more so. Personally, I love 'em. The harmonic content is so pleasing.
Now in the JP models, those PU's are even hotter than in the Majesty.
 

cardinal

Inspired
On the Dimarzio site, the Dreamcatcher (Majesty- Bridge) is in the list of "High Power" PU's, but out of 36, there are 23 that are higher output.
And the Rainmaker neck PU is quite a bit lower output. It's in the "Medium Output" list. So I wouldn't even call that a hot PU.
So that's the Majesty. I wouldn't characterize them as very hot. They're hot, but many others are much more so. Personally, I love 'em. The harmonic content is so pleasing.
Now in the JP models, those PU's are even hotter than in the Majesty.
Thought the one I played had Illuminators in it. Very bright and hot (I use super distortions fwiw).
 

Dimi Guitar

Inspired
The low-end tightness of the Mesa Boogie Mark series is particularly tough to model/capture. This thread is about how to get the low-end right in the Axe Fx 3.

Let's start with ML Sound Lab's attempt in 2018 to model the Mark V. In the following clip, a real Mark V with tight bottom-end is played first, and followed by the Axe FX 3 with loose bottom end:*

Confused: is it not the axe fx that plays first, which is the "tighter" tone?
 
Confused: is it not the axe fx that plays first, which is the "tighter" tone?
Yes but later in the thread, the ML Sound Labs gentleman announced that he initially misrepresented which clip was the real amp in order to overcome confirmation bias. The important point, ultimately, is that the first clip was the real amp and the second clip was the Axe Fx 3.

I just revised the original post to clarify this detail, thanks.
 

Zac Hudson

New Member
I have a Mark IV head and a mesa traditional slant 4x12. My main preset in the Axe is a Mark IV. My real Mark IV has been in the closet for 2 years. I actually think the model sounds better personally. Perhaps if the real one was worked on and brought up to new-ish standard, new tubes/caps what have you I would revise that statement. But as it sits I get plenty of low end tightness and chug out of the axe. I generally play in Drop C and Drop A (7-string).
Guitars are a Hamer studio with JB and 59 and Schecter km-7 with pegasus/sentient if that matters...
 

tyler0x88

New Member
Hey guys, I'm brand new to the Fractal world as I just bought an Axe-FX III today and wanted to chime in on this topic. One of the first things on my list is to do some comparisons of the Axe-FX with my DRG C+ (long head, fully loaded) that I've owned for over 30 years and see how close I can dial it in. Basically, my amp sounds like a literal copy of James' tone from Master of Puppets, it's so close, it's scary.

Anyways, I'll be posting some updates on my end but I wanted to jump in and join the conversation. I really enjoy the research everyone is doing!
 
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