A Week Review

[nikki-k]

Hi!
This is going to be L-O-N-G. Read it, skim it, skip it. I warned you ahead of time. :twisted:

I got my Axe FX Ultra today. I was going to either wait to say anything, or simply keep to myself, but after a PM to a member here, I decided to share.
I would like to post my experiences each day for one week. Why? Because today was a bad day, I am in a bad mood, and I am pretty sure I will be keeping my Ultra. IMO, coming from someone who does not care for modelling or sims...well, take it how ya want, or not at all. If anything, I hope it will be a lesson to those who think they can simply turn ANYTHING on and form an immediate opinion.

DAY ONE

Plain box.. adds to the surprise Nicely packed, includes manual, shipping slip and power cord. And one Ultra!
Loaded into my main rack, rolled into studio, and did a quick n simple unbalanced 1/4 to Digi 002. Would be nice to have +4/-10 and balanced 1/4 options, but no biggie. Once I get the editor up n going, I will run the proper cabling and all as well. Using a Blue Sky System One 5.1 monitoring system in a tuned/treated room. Bass traps, and very light diffusion/absorption; not dead, not too reflective.

I have been over the wiki, forum and manual. But, I purposely ignored one aspect: how to use it. I wanted to see if it would be intuitive to get up and going. Granted, I have played in many bands, done FOH, worked in studios all over (both sides of the glass/board), so it should not have been too rough. Biggest stumper? First patch, hit Edit, start flipping thru parameters and pages (dead simple!!!), hit the Layout, moved blocks, replaced effects, etc (dead simple again), and then... Huh. Hit edit again, hit exit.. WTF?!?! How the hell do I get back to the damn preset page??? Well, maybe this recall button will simply reset the patch at worst... ahhh!!! It simply got me back to the main page of the preset! Cool! From there, all was well. Next biggest issue? Too many parameters!!! (just kidding). Playing with the power amp section of the Amp sim alone was a shining example of how deep the Axe is. Yeah- one part of one "effect." Now add more, have them interact, and use modifiers, etc. Wish I could use a foot controller. I might have to try building some patches in my K2500XS using my breath controller to substitute for that...

Started off with a Les Paul loaded with a slightly underwound Super Distortion, and a PAF neck from a 1970 LP Custom.

I will say this.. I am not fond of close mic'd guitar sounds. Yes, I know. Grab the wood, build the fire, "BURN WITCH BURN!!!" :lol: If I could only have one mic for guitars, it would be my trusty Royer 121 (non-phantom powered!). I like to run either 1x12 or 2x12 cabs with an EVM-12L load, or one of my 4x12 "dual personality" cabs. Pull the Royer back and set to capture to taste. I love clarity when capturing a guitar sound I have spent time on, so.. into my trusty Earthworks pre. So, while flipping through the presets, I had a rough time digging the amp sim aspect due to the speaker/mic sims. Running through a full range monitoring system, I thought I would have a better experience, but all I could do was mentally compare to the sound I know from playing through my cabs, recording them with my Royer and favorite mic pre. Big sigh, and decide I will have to compare the Axe through a solid state power amp, speaker/mic sim off in Axe, Royer ona 4x12, and compare directly to my TriAxis by swapping between the two and recording some passes. Being able to compare recorded passes seemed a good idea, so off to setup.

The effects in the Axe.. quality and flexability (thx to Mr Vai, it is ALWAYS flexable now ). Not even going to touch that for now.

I ordered the Ultra to be a work horse. I started out as a guitar player, but due to injuries, there is now way I will ever be able to play like I used to. This is a mixed blessing; I now enjoy composing, and consider myself an "aural artist" more than a guitarist. But, guitar is my teenage love, and always will be first in my heart. Since I play bass and keys also, and wanted some nice outboard for mixing, I figured the Ultra would be a wicked second place, just after the completely unaffordable top-end Eventide. But, after all the time waiting and reading about everyone raving over the amp/speaker/mic sim section... well, I had to try it.

I have a TriAxis (ver 2, phat mod). I do not use Lead 1 red ever, and Lead 1 green and yellow very, very rarely. I had a set of 6 Brimar ECC83 tubes from the 70's, low time on them. Went through them and foudn the two I liked most in the V2 and V4 sockets.. viva la Lead 2!!! I love the Lead 2 Yellow mode most, and with the Brimars, it simply.. ahhh, smooth. Buttah.. I am all verklempt.. talk amongst yourselves...

Needless to say, I was not expecting anything close to what I get with my current favorite chain solely from the Axe. I opted to use a solid state power amp, and a 4x12 with Dean Markley Magnum 80's and two OEM, nameless "sorta dark" puppies that just blend very nicely (especially nice with "pulled back" mic'ing). Since the DI with amp +speaker + mic sim did not do it for me (stock..), I figured it was time to toss a Royer 121 on that 4x12 cab and compare TriAxis and Axe Fx. With preset 000, bypassing all but the Amp sim, I tweaked a little and found that by inserting an EQ in Pro Tools and doing a semi-narrow Q boost (~5-6k) on the Mesa track produced similar results to what I was getting out of the Axe. Or, same EQ but cut the same ~5-6k freq slightly on the Axe track to match. I also tried a DI pass from the Axe (speaker and mic sim on, tried a few combos with little to no tweaking), no go. No way. But, not a fan of close mic'ing, and I had these two decent tracks I had just done that I was comparing it to. This is only a few hours spent with it so far, and I do not like sims/modellers. Well, I have not liked any. Horrible a day as I had, this levelled me a bit. Felt a little better. Time for a break.

I am in a wheelchair (paraplegic), so all this setup and breakdown takes time.. which was good. Rolled outside, got fresh air, chatted on the phone...

Back in and decided to compare both Axe amp sim vs TriAxis into that same rig I just recorded tracks with, minus being mic'd and Pro Tools'd. I love playing with a cab. I have NEVER been a high volume player. I do not care for speakers that break up, or require a certain volume to "sound good." EVM-12L's are great for this IMO. But, I sometimes I want a little color, hence the hybrid 4x12 for now. I tried the TriAxis in front, and in the loop. I prefer it in front, but that might be because I could not get the I/O set to my taste, as the triAxis has no input level indicator.. no idea if I was hitting it hard enough; but, to my ears, I found a decent spot for the Output knob on the Axe, and added a little, subtracted a little.. still not the same as straight in from guitar. I like to pop an MXR 10-band in front, and sometimes an OD pedal for a very slight kick, or maybe something like a phaser. So, having the Mesa in the loop would be preferred, so I can simply do ALL of that inside the Axe. On the fence with this part, need to spend ALOT of time trying things, and researching levels and impedance and all...

I also have something I would love to be able to do: w/d/w. I could simply front the Axe with the Mesa, and use Out 1 for w/w and Out 2 for dry. "But, I thought you did not like the speaker sims?" Ahhh! I was told to check out Jay Mitchell's IR's. Not close mic'd!!! I would LOVE to be able to DI out of the Axe using them like that!!! The only problem is, if I want to use the triAxis in the loop of the Axe, I would not be able to have the dry AND the wet simultaneously. I could send the Mesa out to a pwoer amp, and then mic it I guess.. but.. well.. if those IR's are "all that," and if I can do some decent ones of my own stuff.. well...

So I got tired of thinking, and began to play with the layout of some presets, sub'ing in different effects, moving blocks around, etc. The flexability of this thing is.. creamy. Dreamy. Steamy. Just amazing for the $$$. Once I got going (still using the SS power amp, no mic sims, but trying the speaker sims on to of my own cab here and there), I forgot about trying to insert the Mesa. I was having fun! I do not like that real heavy, heavy metal sound much, but want some good saturation and a sweet preamp. I tried a frankenstein Ibanez I built (original run Evo bridge), and then my 74 Les Paul Custom with original PAF's (yes, they are sweet!). I am still not getting the same feel as with a tube pre. But, I do not expect it the first day. I got ALOT more smiles from it the first day than I expected. I cannot see eliminating my TriAxis. It is a piece that has been coddled, molded..tubed, retubed.. tweaked, caressed... I "know" it. But, when it came to clean tones... AC30... Roland JC120.. stuff like that.. Wow. The Mesa gets bypassed, period. I will not say that I am 100% positive that I will never be able to imitate what I love with my TriAxis. But, I do see a wealth of options I did NOT have yesterday, and tones I would have had to spend tons of $$ to even lease stuff. And alot that probably does not exist in "real amp form."

Oh! Preset 162. I am one retarded girl. I spent more time LMAO while farting around with that patch than any other one. Now, part of it comes from being a semi-Vai fan, and loving the song "Pig" (from S&R), and Devin Townsend (master of... disaster is an understatement...). When I turn it on tomorrow, this will be the patch that comes up...and it will be played with, and I will LMAO some more.

Yeah, a wicked long review. I babble with the best of them!
I have mixed feelings over certain things, but the voice in my head reminds me, "Give it time. It is far too vast to explore in a week, let alone a day." I can see things being discovered for a long time to come. For those who wonder why I will post tomorrow, and the day after, etc.. well, ignore me! This is me sorting my feelings, and sharing. Best thing? Someone posts a reply that sets off a light bulb in my head, and I discover something I would not have otherwise. It is like Xmas, and being a little kid again. I simply have to tell everyone about it!

And my thoughts are still not coherent, my fingers are actually sore, and I really want to try playing some bass tomorrow. I will dreaming of fretless patches now.. (sigh)...

 

[godprobe]

Exhaustive! Were you taking notes?
Very cool hearing about your first day with the Axe-Fx.
The Recall button puzzled me at first as well.
Everything after that though, well... you did a whole lot more with it on your first day than I did!

re: w/d/w, I'm not very familiar with that type of setup myself, but I'm wondering if you might be able to get what you want depending on how you pan things, assuming you don't mind running mono (if I'm understanding things correctly, then it would only be "w/d", but maybe that's okay?)

p.s. update yer sig!

 

[nikki-k]

Hehehe! Yeah, definitely looooonnnggg.

Wet/Dry/Wet.
With a dry (cab) in the (center), you still get the stereo placement/width via the wet cabs, and the dry can be "pure" (sans post pre and/or power amp or post mic effects). I used it and w/w when I was the only guitar player in a band, and for recording I prefer w/d/w. I have done recordings dry, then reamped w/w. I am going to try doing dry, then running the recorded piece thru the Axe (reamping without having to mic stuff up!) also. It all depends on the effects being integral to the "sound" or not as to whether it will be a "record it live" or not thing. I typically do not have alot of effects, and what is there is subtle. But, control is mandatory, so true w/d/w "to tape" is really nice to have. Alot of times it is easy enough to simply go pre + power + cab, mic it and effect later. But, front end effects gotta be there too (EQ, certain filtering, etc). I just wish my hands and right wrist worked well enough to make it worth it...lol...

 

[deadringer]

Glad to see you liking it! It's also good to see another Pacific NW'er!

 

[Sportacus]

Hi Nikki

I got my ultra this week. I had the same experience with the recall button. I tried for several minutes (like a character in a Far Side cartoon) hitting the exit button to exit the editing page. Then I read the manual. I find the editor that Lars wrote is the easiest way to shape your tone.

I am astonished by the "feel" and variety of the tones available. This thing certainly needs tweaked to suit your own gear - then again so does everthing. At least there is no fizz or muffled sound that spme other effects units seem to produce.

My ultra is sitting on top of my JCM800 stack (now relegated to being a "shelf"!) but plays through a small Yamaha Stagepass PA. Many times I have had to remind myself that the sound is not coming from the Marshall! I think you need to use your ears rather than your eyes when tweaking to get your perfect tone.

Happy tweaking.

Stewart

 

[nikki-k]

Day Two

Not as long a post, but still long. Thx to those reading and replying, publicly and privately.

Long day, alot of errand running, little Axe Ultra time
Showed it off to some friends, spent too much time making farting pig noises (patch 162 is evil I tell you!)

Really diggin the effects, so many possibilities. I can see it will cause me many nights of "effect possibility dreams." Oddly, I am not big on effects use. Well, subtlety is the name of the game most of the time; and then there are times when an effect or chain of effects makes a hook.. well, hookier! I have not found an effect that stands out yet as there are simply too many, and singling one out has not been possible. I am still like a kid on xmas, and losing my mind over the possibilities. The H3000 was amazing the first time. Playing with an SPX90 was even cool. And then there are things like a Rev 7 that are one trick ponies that are so singular and identifiable in sound that I would hear about, eventually get to use, and feel completely in control not long after the first twist of a knob or button tweak. The Ultra is just.. so damn deep!!! I can see a year passing and still be able experience "AHA!!!" moments.

Got the Axe Editor working, not much time to actually do anything but check transfer ability. Tempted to find a little USB MIDI box to velcro into the back of the rack so I can isolate the Ultra anytime I want. AlbertAxe's IR utility..well, I could not get it to configure the MIDI ports, so no go for transferring Jay's IRs. Hopefully tomorrow so I can see if I can get some DI recording going that appeals to me. Would be great to not have to mic cabs up all the time.

Spent a little more time with the Amp sims (minus cab/mic) through the same 4x12 as yesterday. So many amps, so many parameters. I need to print out the amp list from the wiki so I can choose a few to target first. I have some "I wish I could..." things, but unsure about posting a new thread asking; going to scour the wiki and manual, and search the forum a bit more first. I want to get an EQ before the pre section, and after (before power amp). I could set the sag to "0" to eliminate the power amp (effectively), insert EQ, then pop another amp sim following. But, I can see no way to effectively "disable" the preamp (as I can with the power amp section of the "amp sim"). Really need to be able to do that, or even better! Send/Return in the amp sim!!! And I really need a Mesa IIc...

I am liking the amp sim part a bit more, but something still feels.. off. Since I am practically sitting on top of the amp/cab while trying all this stuff, it is lower volume. That could be part of it. But, I also feel like there is a very, very slight delay between pick and sound from speaker. Sitting so close, and if the ADC + DAC process times are in the 7-10ms area, that might be part of it. The amps do not feel as.. round, responsive, 3D, etc. But, it has prompted me to really target certain recordings to listen to for some real world examples of other people's recorded tones. It is a matter of subtleties between the TriAxis and Ultra right now (amp-wise), but even so, it feels like canyons. I am NOT giving up, not by a long shot. Tweaking and discovery are required here. This isn't exploring a little island, this is exploring a continent of tones. Find the areas I like, build a nice house, and begin to interact. I gave my POD months, and got so little in return. This is different, completely.

Need to read up on the Editor to figure how to access/utilize presets over 127...
And tomorrow the Ultra will get some bass time!!!

 

[javajunkie]

I want to get an EQ before the pre section, and after (before power amp). I could set the sag to "0" to eliminate the power amp (effectively), insert EQ, then pop another amp sim following. But, I can see no way to effectively "disable" the preamp (as I can with the power amp section of the "amp sim").

Eq before preamp section is easy. Add an eq block there, Before poweramp use the "post" for the tone loacation, From the WIKI:

TONE LOCATION - This control allows you to alter the location of the tone stack. “PRE” places the tone stack at the input to the amp, “POST” places the stack between the preamp and power amp. "END" places the tonestack after the power amp simulation. This parameter defaults to a value for each type but can be overridden if desired.

You can not really disable the preamp. It is probably one of the most asked features. Cliff hasn't elaborated but there is some big reason he would rather not do that. The best you can do for now is use a neutral preamp like the jazz or the tube pre, set the preamp section to a neutral setting, and mess with the advanced parameters of the power amp.

 

[Blu-Geetah]

Really, really enjoying reading about how your initial experiences with the Ultra unfold over the first week of ownership. Don't worry about the long posts... the details are interesting and informative... and I'm sure there must be many prospective Ultra purchasers, like me, who find the description of your experiences valuable in helping them to make a decision. Thanks for taking the time to type so much info.

I think I'm pretty much sold on getting an Axe-FX... just having trouble raising the funds at the moment. So... in the interim... it's good to read about how new users are getting on with their new purchase. Thanks again.

:ugeek: This smilie has nothing to do with this post... I just thought it looked cool.

 

[scarr]

I also feel like there is a very, very slight delay between pick and sound from speaker. Sitting so close, and if the ADC + DAC process times are in the 7-10ms area, that might be part of it.

While many people probably play with that kind of delay from a real amp, the AFx's latency is in the 1-2ms range

I've had my Ultra as long as its been possible to have an Ultra, write tons about it here and on the Wiki, and still have "AHA!!!" moments when more and more possibilities click. (Not to be confused with a-ha moments, which also happen, but more rarely and I don't like to point them out to people.)

 

[nikki-k]

Scarr: Had an A-Ha moment, and AHA! moments... the A-Ha moment was using the pitch transposer, one octave up. My guitar was unable to reach those heights naturally...lol..

Most of the ADC/DAC paths (from Apogee to Lavry to Prism to ??) generally run several milliseconds or so (depending on sample rate, of course). Get back 10 feet from the speakers, and add more. Heck- any amp will "take time." When I A/B the Axe plus power amp to my TriAxis plus power amp, I am trying to get the interactive part close.. how it responds, reacts, etc. I have dropped the sag to zero at times, and raised it others. The TriAxis does not have "direct access tone knobs" either, so it is not the inability to readily tweak a knob. I am used to doing very slight tweaks, playing a bit, go away, come back.. compare. But, not enough time yet to really develop some sort of judgement as to whether I feel it is the Axe, or my own discovery of what will work for me. The TriAxis took me about a week to dial in a sound I really sat with for a long time. Figuring which mode was my fav, and then swapping out the appropriate tubes to try and hone it further. I have read all the testimonies of tube amp users, including those who savored the exquisite tones of boutique amps that are so singular and sweet in tone, and other amps that are not so "boutique," but still so sweet and singular in tone.. and how they feel comfy with the Axe. Trying to NOT obsess and drive myself crazy while trying ot discover this is... well, difficult, but so far so good. I remain patient, and hopeful!!!

Java: Yeah, got the Graphic before pre, no problems. Prior to buying, I had gone through to see what I might be able to do currently, and what was not (yet) possible. While the tonestack can be "placed," it does not allow me to imitate, say.. guitar->10-band MXR->Amp Input->(set pre to taste)->FX Send->second 10-band MXR->FX Return->power section of amp->cab. Without a replica of amps with builtin graphic EQ's, such as (most) Mesa IIc's, or a send/return.. or something, I cannot do what I want. I knew that coming in, but I will continue to wish for a Mesa IIc (complete with 5-band!), and/or pre/power split points or something similar.

One thing I did pick up on was the power amp section controls allowing for (possibly) imitating certain aspects/characteristics of tube amps when run under certain conditions. IOW, not simply a "sterile" imitation. While I do not desire to "have" EVH's tone, it is a great example of stuff people will do with amps/FX, and imitating all or portions of that (and more!) are desirable. Variac to brown out a bit; dummy load, line out to another power amp, time based effects (as desired) between load and second power amp; w/d/w; etc. Being able to do these things in "the real world" is, of course, possible. But, when presented with such overwhelming praise and claims of how Axe FX has allowed so many to operate direct into a board (no mics!)? Well, if it seems possible to get the base sound there, it comes down to discovering what else I might be bale to do without placing cabs and mics and all. The fact that it keeps improving and that user suggestions/wishes are being.. granted..well... sweetens the pot quite a bit!

Blu: Thx! I do not have a "metal" sound I am after, nor do I have a laid back "jazz" sound I am after. I know it can do so many tones I can find on albums. But, getting MY tone is what I still seek. The biggest thing I would hope potential or new users would get form this is: do not despair, do not dismiss, do not expect "instant." Some have gotten just that; but, going in not expecting to even care for the sim/modelling, and now I am considering it..well, I think it speaks to the quality of this. The effects are stellar. I do not hear an imitation of Eventide, :Lexicon, etc specifically with any effect yet. I am sure it's "sound" will become apparent as I use other units, but for now it is a "sound" that is not displeasing anywhere. I did not expect MXR flangers and phasers, nor did I expect a Roland space echo, dimension c, or JC120 type amp+chorusing. If I want that exact sound, I would buy or lease. I was afraid it might be sterile in it's neutrality, but I do not feel it is neutral at all. What is neutral? Yeah- exactly. Sterile? Far from it! Plus, the possibilities it affords for varying even a single spect of a sound just a slight bit? Or a HUGE bit? Amazing.

One last thing as I go into Day Three... I am beyond convinced that my decision to go Ultra was the right one. I do not feel like I need to add a PCM-70 or Eventide H3000 or SPX90 or other box known for it's sound/effects because I am missing something. If I really, really want an SPX90 flange.. or H7600 pitch work.. or a Lexi or TC verb.. well, I can get close enough with the Ultra to be perfectly happy. So, the money I might have spent on multiple units got bundled into one- Ultra. My only wish in this regard would have balanced +4 I/O all around so I could use it as outboard in the manner I would most desire. I would also like to have been able to have Input 1 and the front input have cables plugged in, and choose internally (menu) which I wanted to use. Since I am not doing live use, I prefer to be able to patchbay it up in my "instrument rack" and then simply patch in to cabs/amps for recording, recording rig for DI work, or into recording rig as pure outboard. With the multiple paths and multiple outs, it allows me two distinct and independent stereo paths; I just wish I could do balanced +4 I/O for each.

 

[Jay Mitchell]

Most of the ADC/DAC paths (from Apogee to Lavry to Prism to ??) generally run several milliseconds or so

Not the Axe-Fx. Its irreducible minimum is ~1.48ms. Several users - myself included - have verified this with calibrated instrumentation. That's not particularly remarkable, BTW - the Boss GT-8 is in very much the same ballpark. Latency due to conversion and processing overhead is not an audible issue with the Axe-Fx used by itself. For that matter, there are only a very few regimes of total latency - e.g., possibly the Haas region, somewhere between 10 and 25ms in which the addition of 1.5ms to existing latency would be audible.

 

[nikki-k]

Jay: Thx!

I do not have exact means with which to measure, but I figured with the unit running at 48k (based on what I have seen/read), and with choices made to allow conversion times to lean toward speed (not necessarily sacrificing fidelity in any discernible amount), as one would observe with most live use equipment (rack, pedal board, Receptor, etc stuff) that demand lowest latency possible, halving mid to higher end converter times would be a reasonable guess here. I know singers who are unable to work with these mid to high end converters due to even that minimal process time. I did not immediately figure on the ADC/DAC time to be a consideration, but the more I played, the more obsessed I become with trying to figure out what it is that is different enough in the most subtle way that seems to stand out.

I have played with so many modellers, and most have been very easy to dismiss. I have sat with people who spent tons of time, and came to me and asked me to try some new fantastic piece that "is finally the answer.. this one sounds REAL! Feels REAL!!!" And then I sit with them, in person or on the phone, and through comparison, and time figuring out the best way to explain what I hear, 99% of the time the person has gone from smiles and joy to frowns. I have one friend who kiddingly tells me he will never forgive me for ruining modelling amps for him.

I can honestly say- this is different.

The amps are so close, but there is something... I don't know. Nagging at me? Some minute little piece that feels just different enough that I "feel." I can ignore it, and have an absolute blast flipping through amps and jamming. Funny thing is, amps I have tried through out the years that I disliked (including ones other people love, and I have never been able to understand why) are being discovered as I play with my Ultra, and I find I still dislike them for the same reason(s). Others I never had adequate time with are now in front of me to take my time with.. to spend a different day that has my ears in a different mood. Close enough to know what amp it is. But, there remains this "reactive" element that I am unable to.. massage... tweak.. identify.. I don't know. Something. Maybe it is really some psychological "leftover" from my own dislike of all the modellers and sims I have tried previously. I think I am letting go of it and giving it a chance. Maybe not? (sigh)

One thing I am trying to understand sonically is the Input level. With an amp.. like a JCM800 or even a pre like my TriAxis.. I just plug in and go. The Axe is like other *modellers* when considering the input level. It isn't like with an outboard unit where I have 24 bits, and can simply follow some basic digital laws and real life experience to set it; the delay will not react differently if I have a couple dB difference in level. Well, not appreciably. But since this is an amp sim that is input level reactive.. wow. It is different. I can get close, but feeling this bit of something being "missing," I have to consider the input section. I want to try a pedal in front to see if that changes anything. Maybe my MXR 10-band. Getting that front input figured interests me. The "traditional me" wants to plug in a hotter pickup'd guitar, get it *right* and then grab one with a PAF and see how the input reacts compared what I would experience with an amp. Will I be able to leave it as set for the hot pickup, and have the Axe respond just as an amp head/combo/preamp will? This is the prime area I am trying "feel." I understand the tech, but the application is.. vague still. This is where I love an actual amp or preamp.. plugin, and go. My pickup choice and decision to pedal or not prior has always been my way of controlling how hot (or not) the signal going in is.

Eh, I am babbling.. need food....need to let go of the tech and just feel the damn thing today.

 

[Jay Mitchell]

I know singers who are unable to work with these mid to high end converters due to even that minimal process time.

Then you know singers who can't handle singing through floor wedges, because the time-of-flight required for sound to get from the wedge to the singer's ear is always at least 5-6ms. A lot of that kind of attitude is nothing but primadonna behavior. It's often got little or no basis in the actual equipment, and I'd wager that latency on the order of 2ms or less is never a real issue. I'm not saying that artist attitudes aren't a significant issue, but I am saying that they very seldom are in a position to diagnose the actual causes of what they like or don't like in what they hear.

The amps are so close, but there is something... I don't know. Nagging at me? Some minute little piece that feels just different enough that I "feel."

I've encountered exactly the same feeling when I played through an amp that was nominally identical to one that I owned at the time. I've also gotten the feeling after retubing an amp. It's not exclusive to DSP-based gear, and often the only option you have is to play through it. It usually goes away after some time spent becoming acclimated to the difference.

But, there remains this "reactive" element that I am unable to.. massage... tweak.. identify..

I've had that feeling about many tube amps I've owned. My solution was to take 'em apart and perform strategic redesign/surgery. The only amp I owned that I never modded was a brownface Bassman head, but that came relatively early in my musical career, and I can't say that I'd be perfectly happy with it now.

But since this is an amp sim that is input level reactive.. wow. It is different. I can get close, but feeling this bit of something being "missing," I have to consider the input section.

Following the manual directions to set the input level is the best approach. That optimizes S/N, making the best possible use of the A/D dynamic range. If you find that you then want to drive an amp block harder or softer, the thing to do is insert either a volume/pan block (which offers attenuation) or a filter block set to null (from which you can get either boost or cut) in front of the block. If you bring added noise into the conversion process - or worse, if you clip the analog input - you can't fix what you've caused with anything inside the unit. It's trivially easy to alter the signal level after it's been digitized, however.

Will I be able to leave it as set for the hot pickup, and have the Axe respond just as an amp head/combo/preamp will?

Yes. If you contemplate playing multiple guitars through it in a gig situation, you could set the input level for the hottest one and leave it alone for the others. That would be my approach.

My pickup choice and decision to pedal or not prior has always been my way of controlling how hot (or not) the signal going in is.

How "hot" your pickups are is no longer a factor, and that's a Good Thing. Hotter pickups tend to have more windings and therefore much higher source impedances than lower-output ones. For that reason, they are much more sensitive to cable capacitance. With the Axe-Fx, you can use any pickup you want to drive any amp block as hard or as lightly as you want. It does require some adjustment in your thinking, but it makes life much simpler in the long run.

Right now I'm working on a setup that will allow you to effectively place an EQ between the preamp and power amp. Unfortunately, it requires using more resources (e.g., the second amp block), but for Mesa fans it may give you a way to produces the sounds you've been accustomed to making with your amps. Film at 11.

 

[scarr]

One last thing as I go into Day Three... I am beyond convinced that my decision to go Ultra was the right one.

I told you it doesn't normally take more than a couple days.

Right now I'm working on a setup that will allow you to effectively place an EQ between the preamp and power amp. Unfortunately, it requires using more resources (e.g., the second amp block), but for Mesa fans it may give you a way to produces the sounds you've been accustomed to making with your amps. Film at 11.

I'm intrigued, mainly because that suggests separating the two halves somehow.

 

[javajunkie]

One last thing as I go into Day Three... I am beyond convinced that my decision to go Ultra was the right one.

I told you it doesn't normally take more than a couple days.

[quote="Jay Mitchell":38y9mq94]Right now I'm working on a setup that will allow you to effectively place an EQ between the preamp and power amp. Unfortunately, it requires using more resources (e.g., the second amp block), but for Mesa fans it may give you a way to produces the sounds you've been accustomed to making with your amps. Film at 11.

I'm intrigued, mainly because that suggests separating the two halves somehow.[/quote:38y9mq94]

Some kind of inverse convolution on the preamp section so you could use the preamp section of an amp, turn off its poweramp modeling, negate the effect of an additional preamp (with very distinct settings) and use the poweramp sims on it? Or is that totally wacked/

 

[nikki-k]

No day three report yet, but it is a nightmare so far... well, aggravating. I am dealing with,erm.. contractual obligations with relation to equipment being used, and thus have not had need for other equip that might alleviate the situation. Yuck.. that is difficult to put, and I still failed...

Anyway! I am having issues with "Bad Checksum," and have run out of options EXCEPT trying every possible speed combo in SysEx (Mac, Leopard, all Digi gear.. yes, I know..now.. ). I can retrieve and send patches it seems, but IR's are a total no go. SysEx and the AxeFx Editor fail, and Albert's IR app will not allow me to configure the MIDI part, so I cannot even try it. I really wanted to throw Jay's IR's in and try some comparative recording passes. Was even thinking of creating some stupid little song (less than 30 secs) to have a nice basis for comparison. I have a few ideas I want to try, but really want those IR's first so I can see if any "speaker tweaking" will really be necessary. Would love to eventually get IR's of my cabs and my 121...

 

[Jay Mitchell]

Some kind of inverse convolution on the preamp section so you could use the preamp section of an amp, turn off its poweramp modeling, negate the effect of an additional preamp (with very distinct settings) and use the poweramp sims on it?

That's it. There may be no way to avoid the drive effect of the second preamp and still get enough signal to the poweramp part for it to work as desired. It's a backburner kind of thing, since I don't contemplate using it myself. It will ultimately be up to Mesa cloners to work on the details and see if it gets them close to what they;re looking for.

 

[scarr]

Some kind of inverse convolution on the preamp section so you could use the preamp section of an amp, turn off its poweramp modeling, negate the effect of an additional preamp (with very distinct settings) and use the poweramp sims on it?

That's it. There may be no way to avoid the drive effect of the second preamp and still get enough signal to the poweramp part for it to work as desired. It's a backburner kind of thing, since I don't contemplate using it myself. It will ultimately be up to Mesa cloners to work on the details and see if it gets them close to what they;re looking for.

You didn't get that idea from me, did you?

Cliff has addressed this issue in the past. The risk that concerned him was that, with the preamp and power amp functions completely separable, a competitor would have a much easier time reverse engineering his modeling algorithms. Based on that concern, I don't think it is particularly likely we will see this request granted.

I don't think it makes a significant difference since it's possible to switch of the power amp already. You could defeat the power amp and study the characteristics of the preamp, then switch it back on deconvolve and your previously obtained preamp response from the output response to determine what the power amp is doing. It's an extra step, yes, but not a massive one for anyone seriously looking to do this.

source: viewtopic.php?f=29&t=461#p5914

 

[Jay Mitchell]

You didn't get that idea from me, did you?

Actually no. It occurred to me a month or so after I got my Axe-Fx. In the interest of helping out, I have now begun doing something about it, although I'd certainly be happy to let someone else pursue it.

 

[nikki-k]

Sorry about no "Day Three." Medical/health issues have put things on pause

QUick note: I did get a few IR's downloaded to the Ultra. It seems that Digi MIDI is a complete bust (for me at least, Mac-Leopard).
I would say that a 1x1 MIDI I/O plus a MacBook (1st gen is plenty! On the cheap, even better).. or maybe even a smaller footprint Windows laptop maybe, would make an excellent addition if the Ultra (or STandard) is being edited constantly, trying to find things that work, don't.. what sounds good, etc. Very cool to have the Editor (thx Lars!) for tweaking patches, with nearly instant response echoed to the Ultra.

If I end up keeping the Ultra (I do not want to commit either way still.. one week rule for me on new gear), I will want a dedicated MIDI I/O that works 100% of the time. I have seen the MidiSport 2x2 mentioned; now wondering the if the 1x1 (current model) works as well? At ~$40, maybe less used or on the 'bay, it is a steal IMO.

Btw- I ended up using my Korg PadKontrol via USB, and the MIDI out on the PK to the Ultra. Only other MIDI I had that was solo is an old Steinberg MIDIEx 8.. no drivers, no go.

Hopefully back trying the Ultra tomorrow...