A question for Cliff... what makes the "fuller" amps sound... fuller?

[Wolfenstein98k]

I was over in the Recordings section, and stumbled across this great video by ProgressiveRocco:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0s3y6xkyPc

In it he demos four models - the Orange OD1 JVM, the 5153 Red, the PVH 6160, and the classic HBE.

But I noticed that the first and fourth amps sound HUGE, whereas the "high gain" amps sound comparatively gutless. I use them and love them, so I know it's the A/B aspect that paints them in that light, but... What's going on behind the scenes in those more gutsy amps?

In that thread, Yek nails it with this comment:

Liked the JVM and HBE the most, because they sound more upfront, where the 6160 and 5153 seem to come more from the back of the speakers.

A great description. But what is it that gives them that quality? Is there any advanced parameters that may "thicken up" (not in terms of lows or low mids, but that... "front of the speaker" sound Yek described) the high gain amps?

 

[Scott Peterson]

I'm going to guess that it's either the output levels are different; or amount/level wet/dry effects being used.

 

[The Last Romantic]

As I'm sure you know, speaker/IR type will make a lot of difference.

And you mentioned it's not the mids balance you're talking about, but I was always under the impression that it WAS the mid balance that made the difference.
Marshall-based amps are by default more midrangey, giving a more "present" sound.
5150-style amps need to be given a little mids to stand out, which is why a tube screamer is so common in front of them.
Mesa-style amps like the rectifier need a LOT of mids for my tastes, because they tend to sound...well, muddy and invisible at the same time, if that makes any sense.

But seriously, if you haven't tried it yet- throw on something like the 5153 RED, turn the EQ page to a 5-band passive and try boosting the middle three knobs a little.
It starts to sound a lot more "up-front" real fast.
It might be what you're looking for, at least worth a shot.

 

[FractalAudio]

The two amps you consider "gutsy" have cathode followers, the other two do not (they use plate followers). See the "Preamp Comp" knob on the Dyn page (or CF Comp if using 19.xx or earlier). I could go on about the sonic effects of cathode followers but suffice it to say that's probably what you are hearing. They also have a downside in that they can get "spitty" when you roll off the volume but who wants to roll off the volume

 

[toolfanem]

Where does the Cali leggy end up out of those two? Plate or cathode?

 

[Wolfenstein98k]

The two amps you consider "gutsy" have cathode followers, the other two do not (they use plate followers). See the "Preamp Comp" knob on the Dyn page (or CF Comp if using 19.xx or earlier). I could go on about the sonic effects of cathode followers but suffice it to say that's probably what you are hearing. They also have a downside in that they can get "spitty" when you roll off the volume but who wants to roll off the volume

Perfect! I'll do more research on followers. Thanks Cliff!

I'm going to guess that it's either the output levels are different; or amount/level wet/dry effects being used.

It doesn't sound like either of those to me. Did you watch the video? Can you hear what I'm describing?

 

[The Last Romantic]

I can't wait to try this out.
Sounds like another situation where I'll get to look at the guy next to me with his "real amp" and watch him say, "you're model sounds better than my real one!"
It's happened before.

 

[Wolfenstein98k]

Well, I couldn't understand much about plate followers and the like. I thought that was just a description of hungry people in a restaurant.

 

[Highcastle_of_Tone]

I honestly haven't had any amps I've liked more than the HBE (for high gain tones) since FW 6. There are many others I like and will use, but the HBE just feels like home now. And home is where the heart is...

 

[Wolfenstein98k]

I honestly haven't had any amps I've liked more than the HBE (for high gain tones) since FW 6. There are many others I like and will use, but the HBE just feels like home now. And home is where the heart is...

Totally agreed. I've found that the HBE is unbeatable for anything that requires distortion, really.

I can't beat it, and I play the sort of modern death metal that is immediately associated with Mesas and 5150s, haha. That amp is like a stout to the average amp's pale ale.

 

[vinnieRice]

The Friedmans are without doubt the Cats Cojones.

 

[Crapshoes]

Totally agreed. I've found that the HBE is unbeatable for anything that requires distortion, really.

I can't beat it, and I play the sort of modern death metal that is immediately associated with Mesas and 5150s, haha. That amp is like a stout to the average amp's pale ale.

Maybe it's just me but I actually prefer the Mesa MkIV to the HBE, but I'm running the Axe into a Mesa 4x12 which may have something to do with it.