A "guitar speaker cabinet" that's close to a FRFR

FusionFanatic

FusionFanatic

Inspired
First, I'd like to say HELLO everyone! While I'm not new to Fractal Audio, I am new to the forum. I would read the forum to get opinions from knowledgeable users, and have found many to be helpful (thank you!) I have an Ultra I bought new in 2009, and a Axe II XL+ that I got new near the end of 2017 (just before the III can out) and I'm very happy with the best guitar processor(s) money can buy! Great products, customer service, and forum... second to none!

I have a variety of excellent electric guitars that can cover everything I need, and I've been running my Axe II thru an old trusty MosValve power amp (imagine that, lol) and a pair of Celestion Black Shadow C90 Mesa cabinets. I'm happy with what I have, but I've been thinking to try a new combination out, especially in a live situation. I have a Mesa 50/50 power amp, and one of the first runs of the Atomic Reactor FRFR. Honestly... my sound is (by far) best with the MosValve / Mesa cab combination. I run it with the cab sims off.

I guess this post can cover the III and II units, but I have it in the Axe II section being that's what I'm using.

While I'm aware that there's threads on the FRFR / guitar cabinet debate... I was wondering, would there be a almost perfect solution to have the best of both worlds. I know every speaker has it's own 'voice'... and for that matter, so does FRFR (which one might think less so)

I'd like to use the full potential of the Axe by running it with the cab sims on (I know I can... there's no 'rules' per say)... but to have the guitar cab punch and feel, but with a close as possible FRFR speaker to get the intended tones by the amp/cab sim combination being used. Again... for live use. There's so much to choose from, and I know FRFR's are NOT all the same. Some people want a real cab... some want studio / PA speakers. I can see the advantage of both with the Axe's capabilities.

I understand that running the Axe II thru a guitar cab will have it's own color, and there's some similarity in response and tone using different amp sims. I cover from very clean, to somewhat mean tones. I seem to gravitate towards Fender for cleans, Vox or Marshall for mid gain, and Marshall, Friedman, or Mesa for heavier sounds. I've always been kind of a Marshall guy. I've had a few... 1969 Marshall 50w (I really miss) and a 200w Marshall Major (mad LOUD, and headroom for days.. think AC/DC tone) I don't use super heavy 7 string 'death metal' type sounds.

Upon some research I've done on line... I'm looking at EVM 12L speakers as a possibility, and maybe a Seymour Duncan powerstage 170, or the 700. From what I seem to have read about the EVM 12L... it's a fairly flat speaker. Kinda not looking to have a horn or tweeter in the cab. Also, the Duncan powerstage seems to get great reviews. I don't play insanely loud on stage with the bands I'm in... (they'll yell at me if I get to loud lol) and the PA can cover the rest anyway.

What do you experienced users think for what I'm looking for? Any 'sound advise' is welcome and appreciated!

In closing... I wish that Cliff (the genius) would make a perfect powered amp / cab combination to compliment the full power of the Axe in a live situation.

Thanks everyone!
 
Just put a more linear, wider response speaker into a guitar cabinet and it’s closer to a FRFR monitor, it’s that simple really, aside from dispersion, cab resonance etc.

There really isn’t “feel” to a guitar cabinet, it’s just sound pressure over a given area.
 
lqdsnddist said:
Just put a more linear, wider response speaker into a guitar cabinet and it’s closer to a FRFR monitor, it’s that simple really, aside from dispersion, cab resonance etc.

There really isn’t “feel” to a guitar cabinet, it’s just sound pressure over a given area.
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Well... yeah, true kinda sort of lol. I forgot to mention, my Mesa cabinets are half open back. Just wondering how the EV would sound... considering if it'll fit and if it's a good choice.
 
You can make most anything sound pretty good, providing you can figure out where the dips and peaks are in the frequency response and compensate for those; which of course assumes you don’t find them musically pleasing and thus a desireable attribute of the speaker.

I think it would certainly be linear enough that you could get some appreciable differences from selecting different IR’s, though the speaker and cab would still impart some degree of extra coloration.

After all though, no speaker is truly flat, so real FRFR is kind of a non obtainable goal.
 
FusionFanatic said:
Hmmm... the Line 6, a choice to consider. Thanks
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Good bang for the buck but it’s just a fairly linear speaker with an option to turn off the tweeter, just like some XiTone cabs can do, and which really isn’t any different than just cutting the highs in the cab block, so regardless if you have a tweeter or not, like on the CLR’s is essentially not playing much through it.

That is why I find the L6 a bit silly, because you can either use it as a tone shaped, with a full range signal, or you can tweak your signal you send to a full range speaker, letting it produce essentially what you put into it, which just seems the better option to me.

I feel like the L6 is targeted for those who are used to tone shaping as it was done with a real cabinet, and don’t really know IR’s, cab block cuts etc
 
lqdsnddist said:
Just put a more linear, wider response speaker into a guitar cabinet and it’s closer to a FRFR monitor, it’s that simple really, aside from dispersion, cab resonance etc.

There really isn’t “feel” to a guitar cabinet, it’s just sound pressure over a given area.
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Agree. Also a speaker remains mostly linear so it's mostly the frequency profile that you hear, and that's a good thing in favor of FRFR.

Just some speculation: To switch to a 'backline' configuration with no mic in the equation(like in nature :)), you could replace the IR with EQ Block - Set EQ to approximate the envelope of the Black Shadow speakers for example. Now the sound guy can actually put up a stage mic near or on your cab without getting two mics in series on the guitar signal. It may get you closer to your best tone so far in terms of 'in the room' or 'off the backline' but I haven't tried and don't know how much difference it would make.

You could also try flattening out your Black Shadows where they stray from FRFR using a global EQ block, and then use them with IRs as if they were FRFR. When you want to go 'amp in room' just turn off the global EQ. block and the Black Shadow color returns. It's an interesting area to explore anyway.
 
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In addition to the already mentioned Celestion F12-X200 (coaxial 2-way speaker, not released yet), they also make the K12H-200TC which is under $100, pretty flat, 200W, and readily available. It uses a wizzer cone to extend the frequency response up to 10k or so. Xitone uses that driver in one of their cabinets.
 
Just some speculation: To switch to a 'backline' configuration with no mic in the equation(like in nature :)), you could replace the IR with EQ Block - Set EQ to approximate the envelope of the Black Shadow speakers for example. Now the sound guy can actually put up a stage mic near or on your cab without getting two mics in series on the guitar signal. It may get you closer to your best tone so far in terms of 'in the room' or 'off the backline' but I haven't tried and don't know how much difference it would make.

You could also try flattening out your Black Shadows where they stray from FRFR using a global EQ block, and then use them with IRs as if they were FRFR. When you want to go 'amp in room' just turn off the global EQ. block and the Black Shadow color returns. It's an interesting area to explore anyway.[/QUOTE]
I think I get what you’re saying. Might be tough to dial in the right EQ curves to get the C90’s closer to FRFR. You’d only be able to compare the tones to EQ on or off... not to an actual FR (unless you have one.. I don’t) or, the actual amps you’re simulating
 
FusionFanatic said:
Might be tough to dial in the right EQ curves to get the C90’s closer to FRFR. You’d only be able to compare the tones to EQ on or off... not to an actual FR (unless you have one.. I don’t) or, the actual amps you’re simulating
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Yep, not sure where the Black shadows roll off but let's say 5KHz. - more speculation - only so much can be done to extend it beyond 5KHz. but you could push it with EQ to flatten it out to 6KHz. or maybe higher - maybe high enough to reproduce IRs of speakers that extend to 6KHz. or higher. It would be interesting to compare graphs of freq. response of a FRFR to a Black Shadow..
 
The whole "to get the most out the AxeFx I need FRFR" myth is just that, it's a myth. For convenience purposes with a built in poweramp and self powered, I think that's what it's more about.
 
I'm a believer in if it ain't broke don't fix it, so perhaps the most convenient method for you is to shoot a few IRs of your existing cabs and use a mix of them to create your own Cab block. Then just tap off before the Cab block via an FXL block and send it from Output 2 for your stage rig use. Output 1 (with your custom Cab block included) then can be sent to FOH.

Once you get into trying out different speakers in your own cabs in an attempt to create a stage friendly 'almost' FRFR solution it could turn into an expensive rabbit hole.

I use EVM12Ls in my Marshall 1x12 cabs and they work great with my Mesa 50/50 valve amp. With a SS amp (Matrix GT1000) there's a bit of a difference but still usable. However they are not particularly 'flat' speakers - they have that guitar speaker freq hump between 2 and 4K and fall off the cliff at 5K. They do have a decent sensitivity of 100dB and masses of power handling so it's probably possible to try and boost the signal with EQ above the 4.5Khz region but at the risk of introducing noise. Basically you would be mucking around with the balance of an expensive speaker that has already been frequency tuned to work with a guitar.

My Marshall cabs are closed back and the EVs sound fine with that little bit of extra thump - I had a Mesa Boogie Mk3 Simulclass open back combo back in the day with an EV in it and as I recall while it certainly could fill a room, the bass/lo mids end of things generally needed dialled up a bit or the mids pulled a bit - the infamous smiley face on the 5 band graphic eq.

The forthcoming Celestions are maybe of interest to me if they live up to their 'retain the essence of a guitar speaker' hype as I've a couple of other 1x12 cabs currently loaded with extended range 12 inch speakers and a HF tweeter to try them in (not sure what make the 12 inch drivers are as they are non labelled and came as part of a commercial DIY kit). I don't really like tweeters as I'm usually only 4 or 5 feet in front of my cabs and at normal stage volume (IE hear yourself enough with a drum kit beside you) they can squeal/whistle a bit. I can bypass the tweeters in those cabs and they sound 95% like they do with the tweeters active - so I think that 2K - 5K frequency range is still the most important in FRFR even with IRs in there - the higher ranges seem not so much.

All my own experience of course - but I do like a more traditional sound on stage with me and only just loud enough for me to hear - the PA system can do the rest.
 
Billbill said:
The whole "to get the most out the AxeFx I need FRFR" myth is just that, it's a myth. For convenience purposes with a built in poweramp and self powered, I think that's what it's more about.
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I disagree entirely.

To get "the most" out of it, you absolutely need FRFR. Otherwise, you're locked to 1 speaker cab (or else hauling around multiple cabs). Most people here would agree that the IR (or speaker) is somewhere between 30-60% of your tone.

So, having an FRFR system allows for the most flexibility and "authentic" tones from what's inside the Axe Fx.

I'm not saying you need FRFR to get great tones, but you're limited severely in your options.
 
unix-guy said:
I disagree entirely.

To get "the most" out of it, you absolutely need FRFR. Otherwise, you're locked to 1 speaker cab (or else hauling around multiple cabs). Most people here would agree that the IR (or speaker) is somewhere between 30-60% of your tone.

So, having an FRFR system allows for the most flexibility and "authentic" tones from what's inside the Axe Fx.

I'm not saying you need FRFR to get great tones, but you're limited severely in your options.
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I tend to agree. Speaker choice can have a profound affect on your sound... hence, a FR (PA / studio monitors) are ‘intended’ to be exactly that Full Range Flat Response... which in reality, may be close but not quite. But certainly closer than a guitar cab. I like my cabs, and I know they have their ‘sound’. I could try to turn the cab sims on and ‘tune’ my tone further. I ran my Ultra with them on because it sounded better in most every comparison. The Axe II XL+ is a bit of a different animal.
 
FusionFanatic said:
I tend to agree. Speaker choice can have a profound affect on your sound... hence, a FR (PA / studio monitors) are ‘intended’ to be exactly that Full Range Flat Response... which in reality, may be close but not quite. But certainly closer than a guitar cab. I like my cabs, and I know they have their ‘sound’. I could try to turn the cab sims on and ‘tune’ my tone further. I ran my Ultra with them on because it sounded better in most every comparison. The Axe II XL+ is a bit of a different animal.
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A pair of 'glasses' for your Black Shadows? :)

There are graphs online for various Celestion and Fender speakers and these can be compared to CLR and FRFR to see if correction is within range and how much correction would be needed. It may be that various speakers don't vary too greatly.

BTW - something i'd like to try is applying convolution correction to my Mesa Black Shadow cab. A room correction like IK Multimedia ARC can be used to flatten out a speaker cabinet within the frequency limits of the speakers used, and can extend response outside rated limits several dB. I have used ARC with cheap monitors that sound boxy and slightly muffled and the result is clearly flatter, so the ARC is definitely doing something. There's also a way to use tone match to 'Equalize' a cab, as I recall - within it's limits.
 
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