A cover band these days? No way in hell! BMI sues bar...

retro_dad said:
Jeez, I can't believe this thread manage to devolve. I should just assume it will happen to every thread so I won't be so damn disappointed.
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Eh, I dunno. I'm not that surprised a post that defends dodging paying for something (aka theft) sparked some controversy.

But sure, personal attacks are an unfortunate given on forums these days.
 
ccroyalsenders said:
Eh, I dunno. I'm not that surprised a post that defends dodging paying for something (aka theft) sparked some controversy.
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Huh? Wait, what? I didn't post it as "defending dodging paying for something". It certainly went sideways and turned into that though.

My position is I won't play in a cover band and be part of the problem. I've played in exactly one cover band in my 38 years of being a musician (maybe two if you consider the band I was in when I was ~20 that played one gig, not even at a club, but at the pavilions at the back of Northlake in podunk Coppell, Texas back in '85). I prefer to play my own stuff, which is part of why I'm not in the live scene any more. There just aren't enough local venues that support original bands these days, and I'm too old to do any sort of regional club tour just to play my songs. The guys who own the bar should have done the right thing up front and their "$30k to $300k legal debacle" wouldn't even be an issue.

I'm all for artists getting paid. I have enough original material that I don't need to play someone else's stuff, though if you want to play live today that's what you have to do, at least here in Dallas it seems. I'll stick to writing/recording my own stuff and leave the cover gigs to someone else. It's not my thing. I applaud the guys who dig it, do what ya love doing, but I just never felt the same excitement while playing something someone else wrote. I'd rather see a crowd respond to something that comes from the heart, MY heart, but that's just me. /shrug

All that said it seems like a huge bag of stupid that BMI is suing a small time bar. I think that time would be more wisely spent doing other things to protect their artists IP. How much of that "$30k" will those artists ever really see?
 
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Wow! $10,000... so a small bar has the right to have a cover band play music??? seems a little steep to me. It should be on a sliding scale, if your bar holds X amount of people you pay this and if your bar holds this amount you pay this. They are basically dictating what size of venue can be allowed to have cover bands play. Like a little 20 seat pup is going to be able to pony up 10K for a licence... Fail!
 
Sixstring said:
Wow! $10,000... so a small bar has the right to have a cover band play music??? seems a little steep to me. It should be on a sliding scale, if your bar holds X amount of people you pay this and if your bar holds this amount you pay this. They are basically dictating what size of venue can be allowed to have cover bands play. Like a little 20 seat pup is going to be able to pony up 10K for a licence... Fail!
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It is on a sliding scale. $10k is the cap.
 
I watched the news video on the link. My mom owns a small bar in Florida and the same thing happened to her when she started having live bands. She thought she was covered by what she'd paid to have a jukebox. This may be one of the reasons so many places today just choose not to have live music.

"We never knew we had to have a license," Cook said referring to cover bands. "We thought the juke box, the touch tunes, the bands and all that, covered all that."

On that November night, BMI sent a music researcher to Tadpole's to log any unauthorized performances.

That researcher logged ten popular songs: ‘Don't Take the Girl,' ‘Family Tradition,' ‘Margaritaville,' ‘Silver Wings,' ‘Time Marches On,' ‘Whiskey Bent and Hell Bound,' ‘Blues Man,' ‘Dirt Road Anthem,' ‘Simple Man,' and ‘My Kinda Party.'

"They're alleging ten songs in this suit and want to get us for $30,000," Williams said.

That would be the settlement, according to Williams, which they plan not to take.

Both owners said it could cost them $300,000 if they fight the suit and lose.
 
As several others have said, this issue of BMI/ASCAP enforcing their copyright authority on venues has been around since at least the '70's, if not before. It's been a hotly debated issue among in the music world since then.

Anyone who's been a pro musician for awhile, and has written songs and/or recorded CD's, has likely been on BOTH sides of these copyright/royalty-type issues. Many of us have seen venues we've played at discontinue a live music policy because of the enforcement. That sucks. OTOH, some of us have seen a bit of mailbox money from songs we've written. That's kinda nice. Unfortunately, ya can't have one without the other.

In the best, most friendly face-to-face discussions, this question usually devolves into grumbling and angry denunciations. However, when you add one toxic suhrfing troll into the mix, any useful give-and-take on this tricky issue becomes impossible. Too bad...
 
Same here in Australia and has been as far back as I can remember, if a venue/shop/etc supply music, live pre recorded, program material or otherwise, licence fees must be paid. Thats the way it should be.

CHeers
Anthony
 
Do you know what happens to these fees? They go into a general pool at BMI and then are divided into "shares". Depending on the level of fame your song has reached, you get a portion. So, if your song is a "staple" such as Journey's "Don't Stop Believing", you get a large portion of that fund. REGARDLESS if the bar that paid the fee is a metal bar. The assumption is that people are playing "the staples" in cover bands, so instead of tracking what is actually played, they just give it to whoever is getting radio play. Basically, unless you have a major hit (millions of plays per year on traditional radio), you're not going to see a dime from these license fees.

Also, getting a license from BMI only allows you to play songs in THEIR catalog. You would need an ASCAP, BMI, and SESAC license to safely cover everything a cover band would play.
 
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Best $20 any musician can spend: http://www.amazon.com/Need-Know-About-Music-Business/dp/1451682468

Also, Sid's completely right. You might be covering your all-time favorite band, InFlames, and any royalties end up in the pocket of Rihanna or Taylor Swift... I 100% agree with artists getting paid, and I'm fine with venues getting stuck with the bill since most will just build it into their cost at the door anyways, but the current system is truly fucked for the small-time artist. This is exactly how assholes like Nickleback can buy Clear Channel play time same as a business would buy ad space, then end up mega millionaires off the backs of Joe Shmoe blues band in bumfuck middle America.
 
It’s a vicious cycle, which won’t be resolved soon, if ever. Musicians and songwriters need to be compensated. Club managers want cover bands to satisfy the demands of their patrons. The lincencing fees are too high for small to mid-size establishments so they stop offering live music. Consequently, musicians have fewer venues to play and artists earn fewer royalties.

There used to be many venues that offered live music in my region. Now, tables and chairs fill the spaces where stages once stood. Sadly, customers seem content listening and dancing to tunes on the jukebox…and managers don’t have the headaches and/or expenses associated with dealing with bands.

Ideally, there would be a single, equitable and flat lincencing fee – void of silly variables, which can’t be accurately measured. More venues would be motivated to participate and in return, more artists would earn greater royalties. Yeah, I know, Pollyannaish thinking. The music industry is its own worst enemy
 
Suhrfer, why are you getting so butt hurt? You come into a forum where the majority/ a large percentage of people on board support their families with music licensing revenue/ music industry cash in general.. Did you expect to walk through the thread without getting any "personal attacks"? Come on dude... Go argue about this somewhere else.
 
I have NEVER played in an all originals bands. VERY few are successful and living in the same town as the OP has shown me how difficult it is to get out and get your music in front of folks, get exposure and success. I've met and opened for many not-so-well-known touring bands.. nice folks.. but success is pure chance.. right song, right place, right hook, etc.

I'm too old to care about originals now.. I play in a pop-country band, most every weekend we're playing "A" country venues in the area, some of whom have up to 1,000 people a night show up! We've played some Festivals with 3-10 times that number in attendance. Then again, some are a lot smaller and 300 is a good crowd for a Fri/Sat night!

Either way, figure out how long it would take to get your "ALL" original music in front of that many folks, even with the pay-to-play, extensive marketing, etc.

We have about 6 usable originals and we play them each gig. I've played them in front of up to 5,000 people, and at venues where attendance was 900+ in ONE night . It's quite something to watch 400 people on the dance floor dancing to your song!! How many gigs would an average originals band have to do to get their music in front of that many people or get that many thru the door ???

Why would I settle for originals only ?? NO illusions of success/wealth. If it happens great. If not.. I'm playing next Fri/Sat night either way.. and getting paid to do so.

Gotta put it perspective folks.. and yes, ASCAP/BMI WILL be visiting your venue management to collect on their public performance license.
Meanwhile, keep playing! ;)
 
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Suhrfer said:
I never liked rules much.
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Do you like getting paid for your effort?

BTW, most of the butthead club owners in my area would like everyone to play for free...things have changed a lot since I started playing 40+ years ago. You could actually earn a living as a decent musician back then.
 
s0c9 said:
I have NEVER played in an all originals bands. VERY few are successful and living in the same town as the OP has shown me how difficult it is to get out and get your music in front of folks, get exposure and success. I've met and opened for many not-so-well-known touring bands.. nice folks.. but success is pure chance.. right song, right place, right hook, etc.

I'm too old to care about originals now.. I play in a pop-country band, most every weekend we're playing "A" country venues in the area, some of whom have up to 1,000 people a night show up! We've played some Festivals with 3-10 times that number in attendance. Then again, some are a lot smaller and 300 is a good crowd for a Fri/Sat night!

Either way, figure out how long it would take to get your "ALL" original music in front of that many folks, even with the pay-to-play, extensive marketing, etc.

We have about 6 usable originals and we play them each gig. I've played them in front of up to 5,000 people, and at venues where attendance was 900+ in ONE night . It's quite something to watch 400 people on the dance floor dancing to your song!! How many gigs would an average originals band have to do to get their music in front of that many people or get that many thru the door ???

Why would I settle for originals only ?? NO illusions of success/wealth. If it happens great. If not.. I'm playing next Fri/Sat night either way.. and getting paid to do so.

Gotta put it perspective folks.. and yes, ASCAP/BMI WILL be visiting your venue management to collect on their public performance license.
Meanwhile, keep playing! ;)
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I see where you're coming from with the all original thing.

This is why I don't rely on my all original band as a source of income. If it actually makes some money, that would be awesome, but it actually costs money to make an all original band break even, but that's just fine with me, I enjoy playing live, and it makes me happy seeing how much people enjoy our music. I use my studio work, songs I've sold, collaborative stuff, that kind of thing as my musical income, which is why this issue is something I care about. My band might be on local radio soon, and that might generate some small revenue, but I'd just be happy to see it expand our fan base, so more people can hear the stuff we've written.

I know it seems like some wide eyed idealist thing, but it's really not. It's just that put a lot of work into the shitty side of the music life, so it's nice to have a band that does what I want, no matter the final results.
 
I'm sure BMI is doing this for the Artist' :). Did you see the song list? some of those guys are dead.
 
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