A/B Red Wire Mixed IR compared to Axe-FX Stock Greenback412

Scott Peterson said:
Remember, I am mixing these cabs to MY ear; these are NOT the only way to mix them. My way is NOT the only way, it's just ONE way. And trust me, as I go, how they cut in the mix is of paramount importance to me. Not trying to be an apologist for Red Wire, but you can do what you describe with the Red Wire stuff in intricate detail; something you cannot do with freebies grabbed from the net.

But there's no witness to proof that the redwire IR's have been made more accurately than those free ones, am I right? Those free IR's include some known modern studio engineers' work. Ofcourse the way that the guitar cuts in a mix differs in different genres. I play poprock and metal so upper mids define how the guitar sounds in the mix and the biggest tonal difference in your clip was the lowmidrange... which I usually boost anyways.

I didn't mean to bash you, don't get me wrong. I'm just saying that this wasn't the best A/B because you set up your amp block with the redwirez cab and then switched between different cabs so ofcourse they don't sound as good as the redwirez cab. I still think that the redwirez IR's are awesome and I'm using them and everyone else should too but you can get very very similar results with those free ones.
 
Clark Kent said:
[quote="Scott Peterson":3vwort4k]Remember, I am mixing these cabs to MY ear; these are NOT the only way to mix them. My way is NOT the only way, it's just ONE way. And trust me, as I go, how they cut in the mix is of paramount importance to me. Not trying to be an apologist for Red Wire, but you can do what you describe with the Red Wire stuff in intricate detail; something you cannot do with freebies grabbed from the net.

But there's no witness to proof that the redwire IR's have been made more accurately than those free ones, am I right? Those free IR's include some known modern studio engineers' work. Ofcourse the way that the guitar cuts in a mix differs in different genres. I play poprock and metal so upper mids define how the guitar sounds in the mix and the biggest tonal difference in your clip was the lowmidrange... which I usually boost anyways.

I didn't mean to bash you, don't get me wrong. I'm just saying that this wasn't the best A/B because you set up your amp block with the redwirez cab and then switched between different cabs so ofcourse they don't sound as good as the redwirez cab. I still think that the redwirez IR's are awesome and I'm using them and everyone else should too but you can get very very similar results with those free ones.[/quote:3vwort4k]

Wow. I wasn't conducting a scientific test; I was just trying out cab mixes, thought it'd be illuminating or at least interesting to hear the mix vs. the internal greenback 412 and made a quick little clip to share with everyone. The thread title doesn't say 'versus' nor implies any scientific measures taken. I spun the knob from my in process mix IR to the stock one for fun. "A/B Red Wire Mixed IR compared to Axe-FX Stock Greenback412". I made a clip, shared it because I found it interesting and others have agreed with that; whether they liked the results or not. It's fine to not like it, but I don't understand your agenda on this thread at this point in time. I made no comparisons or claims to freebie IR's on the Net at any point in the thread title or OP.

So, yea, I'm glad you didn't mean to 'bash' me but dude, lighten up. It's just for fun. I'm not out to prove anything to you. I'm also not trying to sell Red Wire, they just happen to be the tool I am using and I feel that they are exceptionally well done as do others like Cliff Chase, Jay Mitchell and others that know this stuff inside and out.

To borrow a phrase from you and spin it back at cha' (because it's begging the question), 'there's no witness that the free IR's have been made more accurately than those Red Wire ones, am I right?' You are begging the question and I don't understand why you are driving this bus on my thread. Create your own thread and have at.
 
Scott Peterson said:
Wow. I wasn't conducting a scientific test; I was just trying out cab mixes, thought it'd be illuminating or at least interesting to hear the mix vs. the internal greenback 412 and made a quick little clip to share with everyone. The thread title doesn't say 'versus' nor implies any scientific measures taken. I spun the knob from my in process mix IR to the stock one for fun. "A/B Red Wire Mixed IR compared to Axe-FX Stock Greenback412". I made a clip, shared it because I found it interesting and others have agreed with that; whether they liked the results or not. It's fine to not like it, but I don't understand your agenda on this thread at this point in time. I made no comparisons or claims to freebie IR's on the Net at any point in the thread title or OP.

So, yea, I'm glad you didn't mean to 'bash' me but dude, lighten up. It's just for fun. I'm not out to prove anything to you. I'm also not trying to sell Red Wire, they just happen to be the tool I am using and I feel that they are exceptionally well done as do others like Cliff Chase, Jay Mitchell and others that know this stuff inside and out.

To borrow a phrase from you and spin it back at cha' (because it's begging the question), 'there's no witness that the free IR's have been made more accurately than those Red Wire ones, am I right?' You are begging the question and I don't understand why you are driving this bus on my thread. Create your own thread and have at.

:shock: I think it's you driving the bus. You seem to get insulted althought you are not being insulted. Let's not continue doing this. I just thought it was a bit over the top when these guys said it made the tone 3D or whatever. The fact is that it's one guitar track = mono (one dimensional BTW) just EQ'd in a different way. No change in compression etc.
 
Clark Kent said:
[quote="Scott Peterson":2wcot0i1]Wow. I wasn't conducting a scientific test; I was just trying out cab mixes, thought it'd be illuminating or at least interesting to hear the mix vs. the internal greenback 412 and made a quick little clip to share with everyone. The thread title doesn't say 'versus' nor implies any scientific measures taken. I spun the knob from my in process mix IR to the stock one for fun. "A/B Red Wire Mixed IR compared to Axe-FX Stock Greenback412". I made a clip, shared it because I found it interesting and others have agreed with that; whether they liked the results or not. It's fine to not like it, but I don't understand your agenda on this thread at this point in time. I made no comparisons or claims to freebie IR's on the Net at any point in the thread title or OP.

So, yea, I'm glad you didn't mean to 'bash' me but dude, lighten up. It's just for fun. I'm not out to prove anything to you. I'm also not trying to sell Red Wire, they just happen to be the tool I am using and I feel that they are exceptionally well done as do others like Cliff Chase, Jay Mitchell and others that know this stuff inside and out.

To borrow a phrase from you and spin it back at cha' (because it's begging the question), 'there's no witness that the free IR's have been made more accurately than those Red Wire ones, am I right?' You are begging the question and I don't understand why you are driving this bus on my thread. Create your own thread and have at.

:shock: I think it's you driving the bus. You seem to get insulted althought you are not being insulted. Let's not continue doing this. I just thought it was a bit over the top when these guys said it made the tone 3D or whatever. The fact is that it's one guitar track = mono (one dimensional BTW) just EQ'd in a different way. No change in compression etc.[/quote:2wcot0i1]

It's my bus because it's my thread. Drive the bus on your own thread; that's my point. I'm not insulted at all, just recognize that you are making an issue out of something that isn't really part and parcel of 'this' specific thread.

Point being - start your own thread doing your own A/B of freebie IR's with Red Wire IR's if that's your bag. That's not part of this specific current thread is my point. I don't drive my bus onto your threads pursuing my agenda... ya know?

You seem to have an issue with folks expressing an opinion that you don't agree with. Don't project that unto me; just take your points and start your own thread. I promise not to drive my bus onto your lane. Honest.
 
Scott Peterson said:
It's my bus because it's my thread. Drive the bus on your own thread; that's my point. I'm not insulted at all, just recognize that you are making an issue out of something that isn't really part and parcel of 'this' specific thread.

Point being - start your own thread doing your own A/B of freebie IR's with Red Wire IR's if that's your bag. That's not part of this specific current thread is my point. I don't drive my bus onto your threads pursuing my agenda... ya know?

You seem to have an issue with folks expressing an opinion that you don't agree with. Don't project that unto me; just take your points and start your own thread. I promise not to drive my bus onto your lane. Honest.

It's my third day on the thread and if this is the mentality here I won't be here for long. Threads are made for conversation. What... there's no room for constructive criticism in here... do I have to praise your clip so I can post here?

C'mon you're a grown man...
 
Clark Kent said:
[quote="Scott Peterson":2vlq9d0d]It's my bus because it's my thread. Drive the bus on your own thread; that's my point. I'm not insulted at all, just recognize that you are making an issue out of something that isn't really part and parcel of 'this' specific thread.

Point being - start your own thread doing your own A/B of freebie IR's with Red Wire IR's if that's your bag. That's not part of this specific current thread is my point. I don't drive my bus onto your threads pursuing my agenda... ya know?

You seem to have an issue with folks expressing an opinion that you don't agree with. Don't project that unto me; just take your points and start your own thread. I promise not to drive my bus onto your lane. Honest.

It's my third day on the thread and if this is the mentality here I won't be here for long. Threads are made for conversation. What... there's no room for constructive criticism in here... do I have to praise your clip so I can post here?

C'mon you're a grown man...[/quote:2vlq9d0d]

"Clark",

I'll assume you are a grown man too, with a cartoon character's name as your user handle. Please attach your real name to your posts; it'd give you a bit more credibility. You can bag on the clip, that's not the issue. You are making a mountain out of a molehill. I made a mix, I put it in the Axe-FX. I went to the stock cab to hear the difference and it struck me that others might find this interesting. I recorded a little clip doing that. I shared it, along with the context of what I am attempting. You disagree and want to take the thread places I am not willing, nor have the time to pursue. I point that out, more than once, and you keep riding me over it. I point that out and now you get into the personal insults part "C'mon you're a grown man...." that these things go.

So let's break it down, so we can both be more productive. I've no agenda here other than to say, hey, check this out. Others have said, hey, I hear what you are saying. You are saying, hey, I don't agree. I don't like your clip because of the EQ. It won't cut in the mix. This isn't a proper A/B test. I could do that with freebie IR's. You cannot say that freebie IR's are any less quality wise than Red Wire." and on.

I say, slow down. I am in the process, not arriving at the magic silver bullet and saying hey, the clouds have parted and angels are singing. I point out that I in way every said anything positive nor negative about freebie IR's on this thread. I asked you to start your own thread to discuss your ideas and opinions in more detail because I do not feel that my thread is the place to pursue it and further more promised to not drive by onto your thread with my points to derail your thoughts.

So, now here we are. I have not gotten into the personal insult realm that you are starting to drop into and would really prefer to not do that. So please, start your own thread with your own clips and make your points with your own thoughts and we'll both be happier for it. My way is not, has not and will never be the only way; it might not even be the right way to do what I am trying to do. I am basically living this out loud in real time and thought it was interesting to share. You disagree and have made it your agenda to pursue that path over the last two pages of this thread... which is a clip thread and not a debate by any stretch.

Peace.
 
Nice comparison scott, thanks a lot!!

What I like is that it's more 'roomy' or to put it another way, I hear a few more reflections/room interaction/whatever :lol:

I'm really liking the orange royer 121 1" cap edge. I'm having trouble with the 57 impulses though, they all seem rather lacking in low-end/agression compared to my experience with 57's in the studio.

Anyone have experience with the marshall v30 cab versus the orange?

cheers :cool:
 
I haven't drank the kool-aid yet on the RedWirez cabs, but I'm certainly considering it. First and foremost, I just wrapped up recording on my band's Demo EP, so it's time to upgrade to v9.0! It's christmas early and I've been staring at the huge present cliff wrapped up for weeks!

I appreciate the quick and dirty comparison. Honestly, it's a "real" A/B test as far as practicality is concerned. I normally take a patch, run through cabs until I get something close, then finish it up. Precisely what was done in the clip. Does that mean the RedWirez are better? Maybe, but maybe not. It just means the sound Scott's getting for this patch with the RW Cab is noticeably better than the sound on this patch with the stock IR. Probably because it was originally setup for this cab, but to discount the quality of either IR based on this is a pretty bold conclusion.

Everybody just needs to relax. Part of the fun is taking an awesome sound and going, "Ok, what makes this thing tick". The only way to do this is to start replacing individual pieces and see how it changes things. I think the lesson here is that a cab block is nothing more than a highly complex EQ curve and the two IR's captured drastically different curves. The correct one is the one that sounds good for your purpose.
 
Just curious? Are you talking about about the stock green4x12s or the 25w 4x12s, they are both greens? The green 4x12 is an IR Cliff found off the Internet and liked so he threw it in. I really haven't found that sim (green 4x12) to be very usable in my patches at all. The stock 25W 4x12 are close to the redwirez IMO. The stock 25W has a tendency to have less bass than the equivalent redwirez. It is really great to have a hardware unit to do that will let us load that up. It really boils down to mostly personal taste on these sort of things. The redwirez just has a lot more options. I could probably pick a redwirez 4x12 the sounds very close to Cliffs 25w 4x12. That being said, I have a tendency to like some of the positions(and mixed cabs) that are available in the redwirez more, so I use them. I guess my point is that I haven't found the green 4x12 to be representative to greens I have used (at least not how I would mic it). That being said, other find it useful. Cliff must have or he wouldn't have put it in there.
 
javajunkie said:
Just curious? Are you talking about about the stock green4x12s or the 25w 4x12s, they are both greens? The green 4x12 is an IR Cliff found off the Internet and liked so he threw it in. I really haven't found that sim (green 4x12) to be very usable in my patches at all. The stock 25W 4x12 are close to the redwirez IMO. The stock 25W has a tendency to have less bass than the equivalent redwirez. It is really great to have a hardware unit to do that will let us load that up. It really boils down to mostly personal taste on these sort of things. The redwirez just has a lot more options. I could probably pick a redwirez 4x12 the sounds very close to Cliffs 25w 4x12. That being said, I have a tendency to like some of the positions(and mixed cabs) that are available in the redwirez more, so I use them. I guess my point is that I haven't found the green 4x12 to be representative to greens I have used (at least not how I would mic it). That being said, other find it useful. Cliff must have or he wouldn't have put it in there.

It was the Green412 in the comparison.

That one always had a weird 'diffuse', undefined bass response to my ear. I think that's clear to hear in this example.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The entire point has gone in directions that this was never intended to go though. I thought it was informative and interesting. Too many folks either think I was trying to show the superiority of this or that over the stock cabs; not the intention.

In the studio, you choose your mics, you move them around and you then mix the results to nail your tone. To me, using the Red Wire IR's simply offers that power to anyone. Cliff did the original truncated versions of the Red Wire IR's himself for Mike; so obviously Cliff acknowledges what Red Wire is doing and appreciates it. No one would go to those lengths for another company if there wasn't some validity to their work.

What Red Wire is doing here is just a common sense approach. And flat out, it allows you to 'tune' the cab the same way you'd dial a real cab tone in real life in the studio.

IMHO.
 
In the studio, you choose your mics, you move them around and you then mix the results to nail your tone. To me, using the Red Wire IR's simply offers that power to anyone.

Exactly
 
+1

I've been trying to get a good recorded tone for some nice 10 years now, and getting the mic moving part of things from the "real world" into the "digital world" makes things a LOT easier. Sure you can't get that very specific 0.1 inch adjustments, but you can get close enough.

One thing that puzzles me a lot with RedWirez though is why the MesaV30 and MarshallV30 cabs sound SO different, even in the 0 inch positions. It's as if they were completely different speakers. Not to mention the "suck" factor in the Marshall one is exceedingly high. The top end is brittle, the upper mids are edgy, there is no lower mid content, and the bass just farts out.

I've played through a couple V30 equipped 4x12s, Marshall included, and never found the difference to be THAT big. I guess most people tend to agree since they choose no-brand cabs, like Avatar or Fame, instead of Mesa or Bogner or ENGL, even after having experienced both, due to the lower price tag.

I guess I'll pull the trigger on the Orange 4x12 this weekend and see what can I get from it.

Best,

Alex
 
I'm not sure about the miking of the different cabs but I've used both Marshall and Mesa quads (bought the Mesa) and they sound quite different playing through them live. I'm guessing mostly from the oversize of the Mesa cab.

I still haven't pulled the trigger on the Red Wire IRs. I'm going to experiment with some of the free ones available plus the AxeFX ones first. I find you really have to be tweaking the cabs in the mix for the final choice as opposed to tweaking with just a solo guitar.
 
Sidivan said:
Everybody just needs to relax. Part of the fun is taking an awesome sound and going, "Ok, what makes this thing tick". The only way to do this is to start replacing individual pieces and see how it changes things. I think the lesson here is that a cab block is nothing more than a highly complex EQ curve and the two IR's captured drastically different curves. The correct one is the one that sounds good for your purpose.

+100
the last sentence speaks volumes! :D
 
i liked the first one!
the second sounds thin IMHO.
what's the first one, stock or redwirez!?

cheers
S.
 
WillyWonka said:
.......just wanna know why is Scott always so sensitive and defensive? love your work/input/passion/enthusiasm, but lighten' up bro, before i get the oompaloompas onto ya. ;)

Me thinks you are over stating things just a tad. You really don't know me very well obviously. Bring the oompa loompas, for tonight we dine in hell.... ;) :D
 
Soultrash said:
i liked the first one!
the second sounds thin IMHO.
what's the first one, stock or redwirez!?

cheers
S.

Revisit the OP, it's detailed there.

Starts out with my mixed IR. :14 seconds in, stock Green412. Then back to mixed IR as noted in OP.
 
Alex EShadow said:
One thing that puzzles me a lot with RedWirez though is why the MesaV30 and MarshallV30 cabs sound SO different, even in the 0 inch positions. It's as if they were completely different speakers. Not to mention the "suck" factor in the Marshall one is exceedingly high. The top end is brittle, the upper mids are edgy, there is no lower mid content, and the bass just farts out.

I've played through a couple V30 equipped 4x12s, Marshall included, and never found the difference to be THAT big. I guess most people tend to agree since they choose no-brand cabs, like Avatar or Fame, instead of Mesa or Bogner or ENGL, even after having experienced both, due to the lower price tag.

+1

Example: take the Scott Peterson recipe for a Bogner cabinet. There's an close-range Orange R121 (V30, from the RW BigBox) in there. Sounds good.

Now replace that Orange with a BigBox Marshall1960B R121 (V30), same distance, re-mix etc. It sounds terrible (IMO)!

How come?
 
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