8/9 string Gtrs, Fan frets necessary for intonation?

Gong8659

Inspired
Hi everyone, I'm looking at purchasing an 8/9 string guitar.
Either a schecter sls:
Extended Range : Blackjack SLS C-8 A
or hybrid:
Extended Range : Hellraiser Hybrid C-8
These are both 28" Scale lengths.

I've tried the sls in store and the 24th fret on the higher guitar strings was flat by almost a semitone. I looked at the bridge and as you can see in close up photos of the sls, the saddle looks as though it cant be moved further towards the neck to correct this intonation issue.

Is it necessary to have fanned frets to achieve normal 6 string-esque intonation on a 8/9 string or can it be as easy as getting a standard setup done?

- Thanks
 
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You're trying to play bass on a guitar scale and that is the problem.

If each string drops you 5 semitones, three strings drops you 15, three more than an octave. One octave down is BASS guitar and it normally has a 34" or longer scale length.
 
Scale length has always been a bit mystifying to me. On one level it's intuitive: Thicker string gauge, longer scale, lower pitch. But then take a guitar and bass, both tuned in drop D. The bass's high D string is tuned to the same pitch as the guitar's low D string, but the bass has both a longer scale and thicker gauge string for the high D compared to the guitar's low D. Yet the D string on both instruments feels about the same... I don't know anything about instrument construction, and I got a C in physics, but that just makes me go:?
 
For anything above a 7 I'd really want either an extended scale, or a multi-scale. Intonation aside, I'd probably want multi-scale anyway for the feel side of things. I've played 25.5" scale guitars with 10s in E for pretty much all my 15+ years of playing, so if I wanted the extended scale for the low end, I'd want to keep as much of the shorter scale for the upper end.
 
Two of my 8 string guitars are 27" and one is 28" and I have no intonation problems. I wouldn't consider fanned frets for anything less than a 9 string guitar. Don't judge guitars based on how they sound in store, with who knows what strings that have been sitting on the thing for who knows how long.
 
You're trying to play bass on a guitar scale and that is the problem.
If each string drops you 5 semitones, three strings drops you 15, three more than an octave. One octave down is BASS guitar and it normally has a 34" or longer scale length.
I tried playing a 28" 8 string at Sam Ash just for the hell of it. Strings were literally flopping around all over the place. My 7 is 27" and even that gets a bit sloppy with less than a 60. A 28" 9 string is going to sound out of tune just by picking the low strings a tiny bit to hard, forget about intonation. IMHO I wouldn't even consider a 9, especially by Shecter. Rob Chapers has a good video review on the Schecter 7-8-9s on their YouTube channel.
 
Thanks for the replies, fyi these two instruments are both 28". I was considering going below 28 for easier finger stretches but it's all about how much I can achieve fretted intonation. So if i replace lower strings for thicker strings then flapping and tuning issues shouldn't be an issue. But it's the fretted intonation I'm concerned about.
I agree about the stock strings, however, I'm the only one whose tried that guitar its practically untouched and the strings arent old. But these strings shouldnt cause issues with higher fret intonation should they?

Okay so no fan frets needed then?

IMHO I wouldn't even consider a 9, especially by Shecter.
toolfanem, why not schecter out of interest?

I saw Chappers review too. I'd be using alot of cleaner sounds than he demo'd. I welcome personal wisdom about potential muddiness.
 
Thanks for the replies, fyi these two instruments are both 28". I was considering going below 28 for easier finger stretches but it's all about how much I can achieve fretted intonation. So if i replace lower strings for thicker strings then flapping and tuning issues shouldn't be an issue. But it's the fretted intonation I'm concerned about.
I agree about the stock strings, however, I'm the only one whose tried that guitar its practically untouched and the strings arent old. But these strings shouldnt cause issues with higher fret intonation should they?

Okay so no fan frets needed then?


toolfanem, why not schecter out of interest?

I saw Chappers review too. I'd be using alot of cleaner sounds than he demo'd. I welcome personal wisdom about potential muddiness.

IMHO, they just don't sound that good... not sure if its the wood/pickup combos, design, or what, but the low stuff just sounds very flubby to me and requires a bunch dampening and gating to sound decent. But this is my problem with a lot of 8-9 strings, its not specifically Schecter. Guitars that are in these extreme ranges need to be built like a tank, with pretty specific combos of features to make them really work. It depends on your style of playing of course, especially in regard to intonation. But personally, I don't think I have played a single 8 string that handles chords nicely. Single notes, not a problem, but chords are going to be wacky on a 9 string IMO, even with fanned frets or true temperament. My problem with Schecter is that they jumped on the 8-9 bandwagon without doing much research into what really works for these types of instruments. My feeling is that if they did, they wouldn't be offering 9 strings with less than a 30" scale length. Glad to see that they are at least using reenforced necks on these instruments now though :)
 
You can't go off of what Chapman's representation of those guitars was though. He's admittedly out of his depth with ERGs.

Again, owning both 27" 8 string guitars and a 28" one (and having owned an even longer scaled one in the past), I don't even feel that anything longer than 27" is necessary for 8 string guitars. I have had no clarity issues with single notes or chords, even with my Schecter. The pickup choice is obviously going to make things vary, as is the string choice for that matter. I've also come across guys that swear by shorter scales (26" and even 25.5") on their 8s as long as the strings are chosen with care. So, I just can't agree with the assessment that 30" or more is a necessity for 9 string guitars. I'd also point out that, as far as research into ERGs goes, Schecter has been leaps and bounds ahead of every other major manufacturer.
 
You can't go off of what Chapman's representation of those guitars was though. He's admittedly out of his depth with ERGs.

Again, owning both 27" 8 string guitars and a 28" one (and having owned an even longer scaled one in the past), I don't even feel that anything longer than 27" is necessary for 8 string guitars. I have had no clarity issues with single notes or chords, even with my Schecter. The pickup choice is obviously going to make things vary, as is the string choice for that matter. I've also come across guys that swear by shorter scales (26" and even 25.5") on their 8s as long as the strings are chosen with care. So, I just can't agree with the assessment that 30" or more is a necessity for 9 string guitars. I'd also point out that, as far as research into ERGs goes, Schecter has been leaps and bounds ahead of every other major manufacturer.

Different strokes for different folks, but I disagree. I actually think his review was quite accurate and what a lot of people first experience when they play an 8 sting. Yes, hes not used to it, but neither are most people. I dont know who the folks loving 25.5" 8 strings are but Id love to meet them and find out there trick, because unless you play REALLY lightly and have cable wire for stings, the tuning, especially for chords is going out the window. I have jammed with people that dont mind that slight (to major) uptune when you pick, but it drives me nuts and I think its why a lot of folks just cant get behind ERG's. I cant even imagine a 9 string being less than 30" and still being playable.

Why even go for a 9 string? They are hardly comfortable to play and generally need to be eq'd to death to sound decent. By the time you have gated the signal, dampened the nut, eq'd, gated again, eq'd again to get the low strings to sound right, the top end sounds wirey and harsh. I only say all this because if one of your main concerns is intonation/tuning, this is a deal breaker for me personally. Play an M808 or something comparable and try playing some faster stuff, It still works. Try that on the 27-28" and its womp womp city. And Schecter may have been doing their research, but its hardly made their guitars better for it IMO. My C7 from the early 2000's is a far better playing guitar than the black jacks or the hell raisers I've played recently. I am surprised that Ibanez is also offering an 8 string at 27" scale length too.
 
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I don't think you need fanned frets.
I've owned quite a few 8-strings myself.
One of the first RG2228's in europe, 2 agile intrepids (28.6 scale), LTD SC608B (27 inch) and a Schecter SLS C-8.
I currently own one 8-string and I doubt I'll ever want another one.
I am talking about my Ibanez M80M (29.4 inch scale).
The 27 inch scale ones just weren't long enough.
The Agiles were pretty good with pretty nice tension but as soon as I tried the M80M it was clear to me that it was the best 8-string out there for me.
The sound of the longer scale is much better and it's quite easy to play because of the position of the bridge etc.
The Schecter SLS was a cool guitar, it played very nice but I'm afraid the sound that came out of it didn't cut it at all.
It sounded thin and I wouldn't recommend Seymour Duncan blackouts in an 8-string.
As a matter of fact, I've owned about 4/5 guitars with blackouts and I would never buy them again.
I'd rather have EMG's for a more dirty sound ala deftones but of all the 8-string pick-ups I've tried the Lundgren M8 is the best.
For 6-strings it's a different story but you need clarity with an 8-string.
Anyway I can keep talking about this but if there is anything specific you want to know I'd be happy to help!

ps: I had some issues with the SLS's saddles. Actually it's probably more of a Hipshot issue.
When I tuned down lower than F# the string would rattle in the saddle and it was very hard to overcome this issue.
Also if you want to hear my M80M in action you can check out my record, 99% of the parts were recorded with my M80M except for the Telecaster solo's. https://soundcloud.com/thejonsymonsproject
 
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I work at a guitar shop and I've had discussions about Fanned Fret/multiscale and heavy gauge strings/tuning.
It's no wonder that longer scale length gives your strings a tighter tone and makes it sound less muddy, especially low tuned strings.
There is a paradox however, longer scale makes the higher strings sound brittle instead of sweet and clear like on shorter scale length guitars.
That's where Fanned Fret/Multiscale comes in, it makes sure that each strings get's a more even tension and makes the overall tone much better.
The low end sounds rich and clear and the high tuned strings sound clear and sweet.
There are people who claim that fanned fret makes the guitar sound more in tune. That is just nonsense. It's basically the same as a normal guitar, just stretched. Intonation is the same.
I own several extended range guitars varying from 26.5" to 27" to 28" scale lengths and I prefer longer scales or multi scale if possible.
You can btw experiment with string gauges. I ordered a set of 0.09-0.80 from Ernie Ball, they are called Skinny Top, Heavy Bottom and I'm looking forward to trying them out. I tried similar gauges on my Ibanez RG 2228 with great success.
 
Nope. I own a 27" scale 8 string. It has a hipshot bridge. I just bought two of the short saddles for the B and the F# so I can intonate lower if necessary. Worked ok before but it's dead on now.
 
But personally, I don't think I have played a single 8 string that handles chords nicely. Single notes, not a problem, but chords are going to be wacky on a 9 string IMO, even with fanned frets or true temperament.
Yes, agreed. I don't think that is a problem with the instrument so much as the kind of intervals you can get away with in that register. Try playing a tightly clustered cord (or heck even a stock standard triad) way down the bass end of a piano. Sounds like ass.
 
^This.

27"-28" is the sweet spot for an 8 string guitar, as far as I'm concerned. No fan necessary.

Yeah, 27" to 28" works just great for me anyway. I wouldn't mind a fanned fret guitar though. Ibanez are making one as we speak :)
 
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