5-pin MIDI transfers are possible but not supported, because they are too slow

zappafranco

Inspired
I am a little bit confused what this axe wiki info means:
https://wiki.fractalaudio.com/wiki/index.php?title=MIDI#Axe-Fx_III
5-pin MIDI transfers are possible but not supported, because they are too slow.

Incoming MIDI data (via MIDI IN or via MIDI-over-USB) is indicated by a LED on the front panel. Data at the MIDI IN port is passed through to the MIDI THRU port (not to MIDI OUT).


I just want to send MIDI which comes from my Mac like MIDI Program Changes in Logic via USB to the AxeFX3 and then send those Program Changes via the 5 pin MIDI Out from the Axe to other devices. But I cannot use the 5 pin MIDI Out for this, but the 5 pin MIDI truth, right?
With the 5 pin MIDI Thru it should be possible, right?
I don't know what "5 pin MIDI transfers" are?
 
I just want to send MIDI which comes from my Mac like MIDI Program Changes in Logic via USB to the AxeFX3
No problem, this will work fine.

and then send those Program Changes via the 5 pin MIDI Out from the Axe to other devices.
But this won't, midi is not passed from usb to the 5 pin midi ports.

Do you have any other usb midi devices in your setup?
What are all your midi devices you want to control, and is this for live or studio use ?
 
No problem, this will work fine.
Thank you for your quick response.

But this won't, midi is not passed from usb to the 5 pin midi ports.

Do you have any other usb midi devices in your setup?
What are all your midi devices you want to control, and is this for live or studio use ?
This is for studio use. I want to send program changes to the SIM1 Pickup Simulator.
https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/sim-1-guitar-tone-imprinting-works-great.164101/
This is what the company says about MIDI:
SIM1 has just released a new Trmare (2.44) allowing Xt-1 to read Program-Change MIDI commands via the most popular MIDI-to-US adapters, and to re-route program Changes as a midi-through feature.
You can Tnd the New Firmware and the updated version of the Editor for PC/Mac (to edit the MIDI program for each preset) in the “DOWNLOAD section of the website!
Following adapters were tested:
– M-Audio Midisport 1×1 USB – M-Audio Midisport UNO USB – Roland UM-ONE mk2


I have actually the Midisport 1X1. I never used it, but now I tried, but it doesn't work. I have also an iRigMIDI USB to MIDI Interface which also doesn't seem to be compatible with the SIM1. I am also in contact with the SIM1 Support which have send me a tutorial to send Program Changes from the Kemper to the SIM1. They are nice guys, but I have no Kemper and this tutorial did not help me. The problem with the SIM1 is that you have to connect an USB to MIDI Interface with the USB connection to the USB port of the SIM1 and than you have to find yourself another Interface which allows you to connect the two 5 Pin Cables which are on the other side of the USB to MIDI Interface. So I thought that I could connect the 5 pin cables with my Axe.
Just as a side note it's a shame that the Axe cannot do USB Midi Out. It doesn't affect my specific scenario, but I think there are many cases where this would be quite handy.
 
We use MIDI PC and CC to control 10 to 15 devices plus lights and fog, via Showbuddy, and I’ve never seen a MIDI situation that couldn’t be solved. MIDI is one of the most simple, yet frustrating, protocols there is.

There are a bunch of adapters and splitters available at a reasonable price that should provide workarounds if your core components won’t do what you want. There is a company called MIDI Solutions that makes a variety of splitters and doublers that can solve most routing or adapting problems. You just have to think out the flowchart and see if your signal is stopping and what is stopping it.

Your start point source is Logic via Mac via USB. First step is make sure, independently, Logic is implementing PC to your Axe and then test the Sim1 device. It appears that box uses USB for MIDI as well so my question would be why do you have to go ‘thru’ the Axe? Why not just use 2 USB ports from your Mac and fire MIDI PC’s to both devices? Would accomplish the same thing as ‘MIDI THRU’ function. Sometimes hard to visualize and troubleshoot without being there.
 
Speaking of "firing MIDI PC to devices" I currently use MIDIFire App in my studio to do all of this I have the Axe MIDI Ports connected to a MIDI Motu Express and also have USB hooked up. My iPad sends out the program changes to all devices (Bluetooth and hardwire) and you can then program modifier to send wherever you want and edit/filter etc.

(We use Bandhelper. Haven't heard of Showbuddy but I LOVE!!! Bandhelper)

MM
 
We use MIDI PC and CC to control 10 to 15 devices plus lights and fog, via Showbuddy, and I’ve never seen a MIDI situation that couldn’t be solved. MIDI is one of the most simple, yet frustrating, protocols there is.

There are a bunch of adapters and splitters available at a reasonable price that should provide workarounds if your core components won’t do what you want. There is a company called MIDI Solutions that makes a variety of splitters and doublers that can solve most routing or adapting problems. You just have to think out the flowchart and see if your signal is stopping and what is stopping it.

Your start point source is Logic via Mac via USB. First step is make sure, independently, Logic is implementing PC to your Axe and then test the Sim1 device. It appears that box uses USB for MIDI as well so my question would be why do you have to go ‘thru’ the Axe? Why not just use 2 USB ports from your Mac and fire MIDI PC’s to both devices? Would accomplish the same thing as ‘MIDI THRU’ function. Sometimes hard to visualize and troubleshoot without being there.
Thank you - "the most simple and frustrating protocol" - that's so damm true. You nailed it!
 
I use a Midisport 4x4 for my non-USB devices and Midiox to manage the routing between all devices, both USB and 5-pin.
 
Thank you for your suggestions. So does anybody know what is a "5 Pin Midi Transfer"??? And why it is too slow?
This is the part I still don't get and don't get me wrong I am very happy with my AxeFX3, but why it doesn't support USB MIDI Out?
OK, I think a while ago I stumbled upon a kind of explanation that it would be very complicated to mess around with this..., but is it really that complicated?
 
Traditional MIDI hardware ports in general operate at too slow a transmission rate for moving a lot of data. USB has a much faster transmission rate. 5 pin MIDI just means traditional MIDI hardware ports.

I don't know why the Axe-Fx III routes specific MIDI data only to the traditional out vs the usb out (to be clear, it does support midi out over usb for comm with axe-edit).
 
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In the 2 or 3 decades I've used MIDI I have never found a single instance of MIDI transmission being too slow. The majority of those years was using 5-Pin DIN. Have utilized it, as mentioned, simultaneously controlling 10 to 15 devices and have used cable runs of up to 20 ft. IMHO USB MIDI was implemented as a convenience factor opening tons of new possibilities with USB being standard on so many devices. Can't imagine a MacBook with DIN ports :)
 
Sounds like in those 2 or 3 decades, you had no experience with sample dumps over MIDI -- that's a lot of data.
 
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In the 2 or 3 decades I've used MIDI I have never found a single instance of MIDI transmission being too slow. The majority of those years was using 5-Pin DIN. Have utilized it, as mentioned, simultaneously controlling 10 to 15 devices and have used cable runs of up to 20 ft. IMHO USB MIDI was implemented as a convenience factor opening tons of new possibilities with USB being standard on so many devices. Can't imagine a MacBook with DIN ports :)
controlling devices is completely different than sending device firmware. sending a couple of words every couple of seconds vs sending a dictionary all at once
 
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Yeah TX/RX of small messages of a few bytes or kb each is reasonably fast. Sending MB's or even GB's of data through MIDI, not so much. Data transfer rate is somewhere around 30 kbps IIRC. In contrast, USB 2.0 transfer speed is up to 480 Mbps (480,000 kbps). USB 3.0 is up to 4.8 Gbps (4,800,000 kbps), but the Axe III is USB 2.0.
 
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No to sample dumps, tons of firmware updates and I definitely see the above points need for speed. Not so much though for the OP's task of sending PC/CC messages.
 
Agree, I don't see speed being the reason that MIDI traffic received over USB does not get piped to the MIDI thru ports on the Axe side. The OP has multiple facts that aren't necessarily in a causal relation.

Fact: The Axe-Fx III receives MIDI messages over USB but does not forward them through the traditional out/thru DIN ports
Fact: MIDI messages received at the Axe-Fx III traditional MIDI in port are forwarded through the MIDI thru port (this is standard MIDI device behavior)
Fact: MIDI is painfully slow for large amounts of data

The first two facts are unrelated to the third.
 
No to sample dumps, tons of firmware updates and I definitely see the above points need for speed. Not so much though for the OP's task of sending PC/CC messages.
Using a rocker pedal to send cc info will overload any 5-pin device I've ever used. Same for pitch and mod wheels on a keyboard controller. Messages will either be delayed or ignored, depending on the buffer in the receiving device.
 
All expression pedal messages between the MFC101 and Axe II were MIDI CC. I also used a Behringer FCB1010 with dual expression pedals via MIDI and it worked fine too. Pre Axe FX, I used an Art foot controller with dual expression pedals via MIDI in my Boogie TriAxis rig and those worked perfectly too.

There's plenty of users here that use Mastermind and other third party controllers via MIDI with the III and they don't have any issues with expression pedals.
 
All expression pedal messages between the MFC101 and Axe II were MIDI CC. I also used a Behringer FCB1010 with dual expression pedals via MIDI and it worked fine too. Pre Axe FX, I used an Art foot controller with dual expression pedals via MIDI in my Boogie TriAxis rig and those worked perfectly too.

There's plenty of users here that use Mastermind and other third party controllers via MIDI with the III and they don't have any issues with expression pedals.
used a morningstar mc6 with 2 expression pedals for years, no problem.
 
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