1500 bucks, you say, Line6?

Just going to throw this out there to stir the pot a little. Mind you, this is all conjecture.

Based on some data points from L6 and UAD I'm guessing that the models in the Helix will be somewhere on the order of the UAD guitar plugins DSP compute power-wise.

Data points I'm using:
- L6 statement that you can run up to 4 amp and cab models with maybe room left over for an effect or two if you're lucky.
- UAD instance chart Friedman model takes up 42% DSP from single SHARC. *Not sure if numbers are for 400MHz SHARC

Now I'm not saying the Helix is going to sound like one of those UAD plugins, only that I think the two will have similar computational requirements.

Edit: But I will say that I listening to a UAD plugin will give you an idea of what you can do with 42% of a SHARC. It'll be interesting to see who gives better algo in that computational range: UAD or L6. I already know I like what FAS can do with ~100% of a SHARC.

Double Edit: This is all based on the assumption that L6 uses their DSP for nothing the tones.
 
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FractalAudio said:
Let me straighten all this out.

1. The Axe-Fx II is still the most powerful guitar processor ever created. A TigerSHARC is about twice as fast as a SHARC clock-for-clock. Additionally the TigerSHARC's we use run 33% faster than the fastest SHARC. The Axe-FX II has two of these. Therefore it's got about three times the power of a Helix.

2. The upcoming AX-8 has the exact same DSP complement as the Helix. It will therefore be equal in processing power. We also have many years of experience in code optimization. I've been writing DSP code for Analog Devices DSPs for over 20 years. I guarantee our algorithms are at least as efficient if not more so.

3. Our modeling algorithms are the best in the world. They are very detailed and require lots of processing power. We could've easily designed the AX-8 to run four amp models but the decision was made to use the same algorithm as the Axe-Fx II. This algorithm is extremely detailed and only one instance would run with the available processing power.

4. The Helix is a "check the boxes" product. It's all about features. If a myriad of features is what you want then it's the product for you. A big, color LCD is pretty and all but it doesn't improve the sound quality. It's also very expensive which means that you can be sure that pennies were pinched elsewhere to meet the cost target. Our research shows that most people do their editing on a computer so why put an expensive color display into something when it's not necessary. Put the money into the important stuff like signal path and processing power.

5. We don't skimp on the design inside. All Fractal Audio products use full-differential analog processing which is expensive. I can almost guarantee that the Helix will be a single-ended design as all their previous products are single-ended. We also use premium op-amps and film caps whereas competitors use cheap TL07x op-amps and electrolytic caps. The results of this philosophy are manifested in the FX-8. It is the first all-digital effects processor that has zero "tone suck". No one else was able to do it until now. But it wasn't cheap to do that. It requires expensive components and careful design.

It's about a difference in design philosophy. Do you want something that looks pretty and has a bunch of bells and whistles or do you want something that is purpose-built for the absolute best sound quality. The Helix is an attractive product with a lot of features. Our products aren't as pretty and don't have all those features. But they are the best modelers in the world and that's our design philosophy. Do you want an Olympus or a Leica. I'll take the Leica.

Edit: I want to be clear that I think the Helix is a fine product (as I said earlier). It's a different design philosophy and if that philosophy resonates with you then you should buy that.
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I think that you would like this guy - if you don´t know him already :)

KV2 Audio

his philosophy is, IMO, very similar to yours in a way. :)
 
Ive read somewhere cliff doesnt want release plug in or VST just because the piracy thing


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Zacflame said:
$1499.00 seems like an awful lot for made in China, I hope the ax8 will be made here in the USA.
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How about the apple products and other high end electronics made in China? Imagine what Helix would cost if assembled in the US most of the parts are not made here.
 
4. The Helix is a "check the boxes" product. It's all about features. If a myriad of features is what you want then it's the product for you. A big, color LCD is pretty and all but it doesn't improve the sound quality. It's also very expensive which means that you can be sure that pennies were pinched elsewhere to meet the cost target. Our research shows that most people do their editing on a computer so why put an expensive color display into something when it's not necessary. Put the money into the important stuff like signal path and processing power.

* ***

It's about a difference in design philosophy. Do you want something that looks pretty and has a bunch of bells and whistles or do you want something that is purpose-built for the absolute best sound quality. The Helix is an attractive product with a lot of features. Our products aren't as pretty and don't have all those features. But they are the best modelers in the world and that's our design philosophy. Do you want an Olympus or a Leica. I'll take the Leica."

I agree with everything else in the post 100% and it's one of the reasons I didn't return the FX8. Wonderful top notch effects processor. But I do want to comment on what I quoted above. If it were up to me, I would do all my editing on the FAS box. That's what I've done so far. I'll be forced to hook to the computer soon because I can't option a preset on the FX8 itself. I don't need a color screen to do it. However, that doesn't mean that pretty doesn't increase function. Anything that helps the user to set up the ultimate sounds and to use them in performance is just as important to me as whether a piece of gear can produce the ultimate sound. I always say that if you give me a single pedal with too many knobs, switches and options I'll make the pedal sound terrible. So if the pretty elements help me dial in the best sound for me, that's important. And let's face it, there are so many pages and options within each block that it would be easy to make it sound bad. I think color could come in handy when following parallel paths, multiple inputs and other similar uses. I haven't tried a parallel path yet on the FX8.

As for performance after the sound is set, the scribble strips could be invaluably functional for someone who uses a lot of presets, scenes, banKS. Again, the aesthetics can also enhance functionality and result in ultimately better sounds. My only point being that pretty and functional aren't mutually exclusive. And if designed well, pretty can result in better sound.
 
I just wish rig run downs involving modelers went into the specifics of the patches. What amps, effects, etc. it's a different animal, saying I use an Axe-FX, doesn't tell me the same thing as I use an Engl InVader, with an EHX Memory Man, and a blah, blah, blah. I want to see what they are doing with the modeler.


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BrainalLeakage said:
I just wish rig run downs involving modelers went into the specifics of the patches. What amps, effects, etc. it's a different animal, saying I use an Axe-FX, doesn't tell me the same thing as I use an Engl InVader, with an EHX Memory Man, and a blah, blah, blah. I want to see what they are doing with the modeler.


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I think Premier guitar needs to hire a host who has the background needed to show the intricacies. The cheese is moving or has moved. Its time to change. Its not just analog Pedals, amp, cab anymore. Someday they'll get it. Maybe... probably not...
 
scottburrow said:
I think Premier guitar needs to hire a host who has the background needed to show the intricacies. The cheese is moving or has moved. Its time to change. Its not just analog Pedals, amp, cab anymore. Someday they'll get it. Maybe... probably not...
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Well, if it ever comes around to being my turn for a rig run down, I'll probably just force it on the poor guy. He won't know what happened. Unfortunately for whoever gets to do me, I use a lot of different crap in my patches too, so we'll be there for at least an hour.


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i love that that video is titled "Tone Overview" and they showcase one tone the entire time. It sounds fine, but you'd think they'd show it do more than one thing.
 
My problem with the video is that they are playing it through a Variax guitar. I get it, they are showcasing their products. But how much of the sound is influenced by the Variax and how much is the Helix. And why the heck are there so many wires hanging off the guitar? Would it have been too much to ask for them to just play with an off the rack Plain Jane guitar?

Also, the more I see the Helix in action, the more I not digging the display. Too much going on for me, even if it is pretty.
 
retro_dad said:
My problem with the video is that they are playing it through a Variax guitar. I get it, they are showcasing their products. But how much of the sound is influenced by the Variax and how much is the Helix. And why the heck are there so many wires hanging off the guitar? Would it have been too much to ask for them to just play with an off the rack Plain Jane guitar?

Also, the more I see the Helix in action, the more I not digging the display. Too much going on for me, even if it is pretty.
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If anything, the Variax would only detract from the tone. That's not meant to be a dig - I like my Variax but it's not giving the demo any sort of advantage. That guitar sounded like a Strat to me - didn't it sound like one to you?

That demo sounded pretty good too me - I could gig with those tones. The dude has good variance in his playing dynamics and the Helix is responding nicely. Nice demo.
 
hippietim said:
If anything, the Variax would only detract from the tone. That's not meant to be a dig - I like my Variax but it's not giving the demo any sort of advantage. That guitar sounded like a Strat to me - didn't it sound like one to you?

That demo sounded pretty good too me - I could gig with those tones. The dude has good variance in his playing dynamics and the Helix is responding nicely. Nice demo.
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The tone in the video.....I could take it or leave it. I'm really waiting for someone to showcase a clean tone to see where this thing is at.

Edit: I did like his playing and the tone......when the volume was rolled back. I was not a fan of the full volume sound, but that could just be a matter of dialing out the bass a bit.
 
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