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1500 bucks, you say, Line6?

Rotti

Fractal Fanatic
I could've sworn I saw a list of amp names earlier in this thread......or it may have been the TGP one. I just have a hard time taking them seriously with some of the ridiculous names they came up with to avoid copyright issues
Oh I think you're right. Now that you mention it, I remember thinking to myself "no 'Soup Pro' for you"

...because it had a "Soup Pro."
 

Bojangles

Experienced
Didn't realise that was the defining criteria for gear to be considered "pro"
Lets not get caught up about the semantics of the words pro gear, take my statement for what it is and what i intended

The theory is, if the big names are using it, which have unlimited resources for tone and rigs, i'm guessing we can call that pro, if not there must be something wrong with it, what ever that is, its not the best in its field

Now that's not to say all big names use fractal, but i don't see many hds out there, if that changes for helix, well i guess we know they have made sufficient inroads to call it pro gear

Which is why we all own fractal gear, to-date its the best in its field, which can be double checked because some of the biggest names in the industry are using it (see above)
 

jefferski

Fractal Fanatic
I could've sworn I saw a list of amp names earlier in this thread......or it may have been the TGP one. I just have a hard time taking them seriously with some of the ridiculous names they came up with to avoid copyright issues
Well, they couldn't use the better names FAS used...
 

Disconnector

Inspired
In a rare move, I'll quote myself for the sake of expanding on this.

We've all bought crap gear at one time or another (or overpaid if you prefer), but there comes a time when you start trusting what you hear. None of us have really heard a helix yet, which is why I keep saying wait and see.
At the end of the day, anything is worth what someone will pay for it, which is why the used market for guitar gear outside of the AxeFx is awesome/sucks depending on whether you're the buyer or seller... or maybe because guitar is dead as "soon" suggests [emoji12]
That said, just going on company track record (which, aside from a few pretty pictures, is all we have), I see this thing panning out EXACTLY like the 11Rack.
If it comes out at least as good as 11R amp modeling with L6 M quality FX + user loadable IRs it will be a total win for Line 6. 11R is a *HUGE* step above my HD500 in my ears - especially for clean and mid gain tones. I can't wait to get my AF2 to compare :)

But I completely agree - Avid's abandonment of the platform has doomed it to rapid obsolecence and eventual death. Hopefully Line6 will have the sense not to go down that blatantly idiotic path.

The Helix will be good enough for most guitar players. The Axe FX exists for folks that find that "good enough" *isn't*. Which are my kind of folks :)

Disconnector
 

Rotti

Fractal Fanatic
I know I'm a minority on this one, but ill say it anyway...

I thought the 11Rack just plain sucked. Models, effects, all of it, just plain suck, not a useful sound to be found.

But I already had an AxeFx, so take it for a grain of salt.
 

JJunkie

Power User
The devil is in the detail.
Line 6 (and other manufacturers for that matter) have been known to make claims like this before. They may say it can run up to 32 effects simultaneously, but what effects are we talking about exactly? For example, on the HD500 you could hit the DSP threshold very, very quickly, especially if you used the better quality reverbs. The only way to get the specified number of simultaneous effects was to run the most stingy chain known to man.

I imagine people aren't going to be able to run 32 effects simultaneously in any way they possibly wish. I could be wrong.

Also, it's all about the code, which is one of the things that one of the Line 6 guys on another forum has stated a few times. Yes, we know that Fractal are putting out some amazing gear, but is their code the most efficient?

Line 6 pretty much pioneered amp modelling. Their fault was that they rested on their laurels and didn't really push the boundaries like Fractal and Kemper have done. Now, there are reports that this product has been under development for some years now, so in fact it looks like they were dabbling in more advanced stuff for quite some time. They also have extensive experience with DSP processing, so they have everything going for them to produce highly efficient code.
From what I have read on this forum, Fractal take code efficiency very seriously and from the tone of his posts concerning that subject, he sounds like he knows what he's talking about
 

FractalAudio

Administrator
Fractal Audio Systems
Moderator
From the L^ forum: Helix is running two of the fastest non-TigerSHARC SHARCs you can buy—the 450 MHz ADSP-21469s—with dual MCUs (one for audio duties and another dedicated to nothing but UI).

Did they really just devote one processor just for the UI (as opposed to amps or effects), am I reading this wrong?
I think what they are saying is that there are two DSPs and two MCUs (micrcontrollers). Although I don't understand why they are using an MCU for audio "duties".

FWIW, the AX-8 has two ADSP-21469s and two microcontrollers. Not nearly as fancy UI though and it will only do one amp model at a time. Our amp modeling algorithms use up the entirety of one DSP. The second DSP is running at over 90% utilization. That's how detailed our algorithms are.
 

Rotti

Fractal Fanatic
I think what they are saying is that there are two DSPs and two MCUs (micrcontrollers). Although I don't understand why they are using an MCU for audio "duties".

FWIW, the AX-8 has two ADSP-21469s and two microcontrollers. Not nearly as fancy UI though and it will only do one amp model at a time. Our amp modeling algorithms use up the entirety of one DSP. The second DSP is running at over 90% utilization. That's how detailed our algorithms are.
This is what I'm talking about.

I'm taking a list of everyone claiming L6 has stepped up their game at this early stage, and you can count on me following up with each of you a year down the road to see who still feels the same way.
 

willowdale

Fractal Fanatic
This is what I'm talking about.

I'm taking a list of everyone claiming L6 has stepped up their game at this early stage, and you can count on me following up with each of you a year down the road to see who still feels the same way.
I don't think there's any doubt they have stepped up "their" game.......the amp models will be better than anything "they" have produced before I'm sure........the million dollar question will be how close to Fractal/Kemper quality will the Helix be.

It looks like it wins in the UI & routing/options department..........will the amp tones be close enough for most guitarists not to care, especially with the use of all those great IR's out there now.........
 

Kingjimmi

Inspired
@Disconnector
I agree with you, the Helix is going to be good enough for most players. The HD500X is already used to good effect by a lot of people. I'm gonna have to assume the Helix will better that bar, IR loading should instantly make the tones better suit more tastes.

I honestly love my AFX, but I can empathize with my brothers and sisters using L6 gear. I used to own a VAmp by Behringer 'cause I couldn't afford the bean. That's why I'm so excited about the Helix. Right now it holds unlimited potential. If you think the AFX gives good tone, then the AX8 is a very clear statement that 2 SHARCs are enough to model tour grade sound, albeit with some limitations compared to the AFX. Crossing my fingers and hoping for the best that L6 puts their amazing hardware platform to good use.

The Helix has the same muscle behind it as the AX8, adds scribble strips, an expression pedal, mic with phantom power, 8x8 audio interface/effects loops, kitchen sink, and can be had at a price that while not exactly in reach for everyone, comes closer than before. I don't want to speculate on AX8 pricing, but compared to a FX8, that's a heck of a value when you're eating ramen.

Edit: Saw the main man's post. Clears up a lot in my mind. There's no way L6 are dedicating a whole DSP to a single amp model. But they could in the future as it's all upgradable. Still, I have a hard time believing that L6 is going to be able to come even half way close to seeing the hardware platform's full potential before they abandon it like everything else.

@Cliff
Any chance you'd ever reconsider your position on turning your algorithms into plugins? I love your curated amp and effect models, but would really dig being unconstrained by the hardware.

Guessing the second MCU for USB audio.
 
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Rotti

Fractal Fanatic
I don't think there's any doubt they have stepped up "their" game.......the amp models will be better than anything "they" have produced before I'm sure........the million dollar question will be how close to Fractal/Kemper quality will the Helix be.

It looks like it wins in the UI & routing/options department..........will the amp tones be close enough for most guitarists not to care, especially with the use of all those great IR's out there now.........
I have doubt. How many times have we seen this already? Maybe I'm wrong, and like I said before I hope I am, but also like I said before, we have a couple lack luster demos and pretty pictures to go on... and company history.

Who's not holding their breath?

This guy [emoji118]
 

FractalAudio

Administrator
Fractal Audio Systems
Moderator
It's a pretty product. Ticks a lot of boxes.

The AX-8 will not compete with the UI or feature set. It's not intended to. When I designed the AX-8 I designed a product based on my 25 years playing as a pro and what I used 99% of the time during a gig. Even with the Axe-Fx II 99% of the time I dial up an amp, a cab and a few effects. What I care about most is a great tone. The Axe-Fx amp modeling algorithms are the best in the world. I wanted to design something portable and affordable enough to get those algorithms into the hands of a lot more players.

Kudos to Line6 on an attractive, feature-packed product. They're a good company and I have a lot of respect for their business ethics (which is something I can't say about many other players in this product space).
 

Randalljax

Fractal Fanatic
It's a pretty product. Ticks a lot of boxes.

The AX-8 will not compete with the UI or feature set. It's not intended to. When I designed the AX-8 I designed a product based on my 25 years playing as a pro and what I used 99% of the time during a gig. Even with the Axe-Fx II 99% of the time I dial up an amp, a cab and a few effects. What I care about most is a great tone. The Axe-Fx amp modeling algorithms are the best in the world. I wanted to design something portable and affordable enough to get those algorithms into the hands of a lot more players.

Kudos to Line6 on an attractive, feature-packed product. They're a good company and I have a lot of respect for their business ethics (which is something I can't say about many other players in this product space).
And thats awesome and makes sense to me sometimes less is more . Just as a question obviously AX8 was well into the pipeline but did you know or have an educated guess that something like Helix was getting close to release or was this a surprise
 

Kingjimmi

Inspired
Love it, that's the kind of focus and commitment that made me buy the product. That and the reviews that claimed FW18 modeled so well that you didn't need to deep dive and tweak like mad anymore unless you wanted to. Totally true imo.
 

iaresee

Moderator
Moderator
It's a pretty product. Ticks a lot of boxes.

The AX-8 will not compete with the UI or feature set. It's not intended to. When I designed the AX-8 I designed a product based on my 25 years playing as a pro and what I used 99% of the time during a gig. Even with the Axe-Fx II 99% of the time I dial up an amp, a cab and a few effects. What I care about most is a great tone. The Axe-Fx amp modeling algorithms are the best in the world. I wanted to design something portable and affordable enough to get those algorithms into the hands of a lot more players.

Kudos to Line6 on an attractive, feature-packed product. They're a good company and I have a lot of respect for their business ethics (which is something I can't say about many other players in this product space).
Your products changed my guitar-playing life.

Thank you.
 

jbis

Inspired
It's a pretty product. Ticks a lot of boxes.

The AX-8 will not compete with the UI or feature set. It's not intended to. When I designed the AX-8 I designed a product based on my 25 years playing as a pro and what I used 99% of the time during a gig. Even with the Axe-Fx II 99% of the time I dial up an amp, a cab and a few effects. What I care about most is a great tone. The Axe-Fx amp modeling algorithms are the best in the world. I wanted to design something portable and affordable enough to get those algorithms into the hands of a lot more players.

Kudos to Line6 on an attractive, feature-packed product. They're a good company and I have a lot of respect for their business ethics (which is something I can't say about many other players in this product space).
And thank you for thinking like, and designing your products for, us 1%ers.
 

soon

Inspired
When I designed the AX-8 I designed a product based on my 25 years playing as a pro and what I used 99% of the time during a gig. Even with the Axe-Fx II 99% of the time I dial up an amp, a cab and a few effects. What I care about most is a great tone. The Axe-Fx amp modeling algorithms are the best in the world.
And that is what sells the Axe FX. We are lucky that Cliff is as much of a fan as we are of early Eddie Van Halen. That's why Axe FX tone is what it is, Cliff is as obsessed with making a product that clones EVH tone as we are obsessed with getting that tone. Cliff actually posted a sound clip somewhere on here demonstrating that pre channel strip thing and he played a EVH song, and it sounded exactly like EVH to me.

That combined with Mark Day playing Somebody Get Me A Doctor is the main reason I plan to buy another Axe FX.

I doubt we will ever see another company where the inventor can whip out a guitar and demo his own product playing a EVH song spot on.

And I've watched EVERY video Mark Day has uploaded and Mark sounds great no matter what he is playing on... BUT, his tone sounds the BEST when he plays through the AXE FX.
 

Kingjimmi

Inspired
Another cherry picked nugget about the Helix regarding DSP allocation from DigitalIgloo, one of the product managers for L6:

The reason we don't dedicate one of the two DSPs to amps is because there's a huge disparity in DSP usage between HX models. Some amps take almost twice the horsepower of others, and we feel full dynamic allocation is the way to give people as much flexibility as possible, especially for those who only want to use Helix for effects. (Or only for Amps and Cabs/IRs.) As a bonus, you can scare small woodland creatures away with eight Industrial Fuzzes in a row.
Also from DI, paraphrasing, "Buy the product for what it is at launch, not what it could be in the future." Who knows the commitment level L6 will show to the platform, they're tied by trade law from commenting on future support/amp models/etc.
 
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