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10.03 Gig Report

Scott Peterson

Global Moderator
Moderator
yek said:
luitanent_dan said:
So I also upgraded to 10.03.. a couple of questions:

1. Does anyone still set their HF to 2.52?
2. Does anyone still set a PEQ at the end of the chain like YEK? (Rolling of the highs and lows)
3. What else has changed in the amp settings for you since updating?
This is Scott's thread, but to chime in on question 2:
After 10.03 the sole remaining purpose of the blocking PEQ blocks in my presets was to fit the guitar tone in the context of the entire mix, when playing live. As a mixing tool, not as a tone control tool. I think Scott does the same, if needed.
But as there's no global PEQ1 bypass (just per preset), I decided I'm not going to adjust all my gig presets each time. So last weekend I removed the blocking PEQ blocks from my presets alltogether (except if needed for other purposes). If the circumstances call for it, I'll use the Global EQ to shave off highs and lows to make the guitar fit better in the mix. It's easier.
I haven't posted the updated presets yet.

Questions 1 and 3:
My goal is to stay away from the advanced amp settings if possible. I keep HF Res at its default setting. Exceptions are Low Cut and High Cut. I always up the Low Cut to 100Hz at least, higher for stuff such as Plexi, Wrecker etc. And if Presence and Treble don't get me the desired top end result, I'll experiment with High Cut.
Tis more a thread for the forum, and less mine by any stretch. :D

My take on your post is similar to Yek's answer.

I use PEQ to fit in mixes; essentially a cleaner and most precise efficient way to help out the FOH or recording engineer. There are not many mixing boards that are going to do a better job of perfectly dialing a PEQ on my guitar signal chain than what I can do with the Axe-FX. I use it when the mix/situation/room calls for it. It's not a 'fix' or a 'band-aid' (my terms, not quoting anyone) it's a 'instant mix' effect block.

In the Amp block's I've found that the default 5.0 setting on the HF Resonance is almost uniform across my 30+ user presets. I have restructured my MV, drive and presence/treble EQ settings in most EVERY preset to take advantage of the more 'natural' top end. The way I hear it, the top end breathes better, is more natural, less hyped. You don't need to pay particular attention anymore to edgy high end in order to tame or harness it. Now it 'sings' where in the past you had to more carefully balance your top end and be sure to not allow it to 'get away' and turn shrill. Now you can floor it on the presence control on amps where you would floor it on the Presence control and it just rips without any negative edginess.
 

Dramelot

Power User
I've found like Scott all my HF Res were at default 5 noon (i dont mess with the Advanced parameters too much)
By lifting the pres about 4 numbers my dirt sounds stated taking life. Maybe less digital wierdness going on now. and I added just a bit of low end. (Watch the clipping)
On my Andy Timmons fenderish barely dirty patches i noticed i went up 6 increments. I like the presence better than the treble.
(Still to be decided when i play live this weekend).
Overall back when Cliff announced the chime I didnt complain, but now i think i muffeled my tone to keep the wierdness out.
Thanks again Scott for chiming in and giving your opinion whom i trust before this upgrade. as well as others.
and Cliff for his ongoing genius and adventuresome programming and mishaps, were all along for the ride.

Now need some time to create some patches from scratch to experiment like jgold and Scott have mentioned.

Because I have my arsenal of 79 tones (made from scratch) and it takes time to change them and adjust levels first
lol.
Duane
 

Deltafit

Inspired
Scott Peterson said:
The way I hear it, the top end breathes better, is more natural, less hyped. You don't need to pay particular attention anymore to edgy high end in order to tame or harness it. Now it 'sings' where in the past you had to more carefully balance your top end and be sure to not allow it to 'get away' and turn shrill. Now you can floor it on the presence control on amps where you would floor it on the Presence control and it just rips without any negative edginess.
That is the best description of the 'new' high end in 10.3 that i've come across so far. SPOT ON!! The top end 'breathes better!!!' At my last practise i was SLICING through the mix, i was having a mental orgasm believe me ( ;) ) and as an experiment for myself, i tried turning the presence wayyy down to what i would normally have (in the negative) and guess what, i was STILL slicing through the mix. If i was to do this prior 10.3 i would simply vanish out of the mix. And again, too much presence and i would start melting people faces! But again, like Scott says, i feel like i could (if i wanted) DIME the presence and it still wouldn't be too harsh or shrill. Something i could never do in previous firmwares (especially 10.0, 10.1, 10.2)

I now know that if anything comes out in the future that i dont think is as good that this firmware is my goto firmware from now on. Unless it gets even better, which i certainly won't rule out! :D

To be perfectly honest, for me, 10.0-10.2 was a step back from 9.03 (i think it was this firmware - i can't keep up!) simply because of the high end issue. I always felt something wasn't quite right about it and could never seem to find the perfect balance in the mix because of it (although i was still happy). This has been fixed for me in 10.3 and i couldn't be happier at the minute.
 

gibsonash

Inspired
Little question to be clear : if i dont use power amp block on axe , there is nothing sound change between 10.02 and 10.03 ...? Right ?
 

Tone_Loc

Member
Deltafit said:
At my last practise i was SLICING through the mix, i was having a mental orgasm believe me ( ;) ) and as an experiment for myself, i tried turning the presence wayyy down to what i would normally have (in the negative) and guess what, i was STILL slicing through the mix. If i was to do this prior 10.3 i would simply vanish out of the mix. And again, too much presence and i would start melting people faces! But again, like Scott says, i feel like i could (if i wanted) DIME the presence and it still wouldn't be too harsh or shrill. Something i could never do in previous firmwares (especially 10.0, 10.1, 10.2)
I am having a very difficult time getting my patches to sit in the mix let alone slice through it. Mental orgasm? I'd settle for a HJ from a two bit hooker atm :D
I have been rehersing with the unit for a while (not confident to gig with it yet), have upgraded to 10.3(agree with the improvements to this version) and just keep coming accross this same problem.
One issue I have is dialing up a patch that sounds great when played on its own(in the various environments), but literally dies as soon as the bass, drums, other guitar & vox come in. I then proceed to make adjustments to the EQ until it starts to cut through however they usually end up sounding "nasally". I've place filters, cutting the highs & lows and although it does clean up the overall sound, it makes the guitar sound so weak and watery when I play a solo part. I've tried using unmodified patches that others have created and its the same thing. (some of which are so boomy, I dont know they can be used live).

I have one, possibly two patches which I would say are acceptable, however I'm so far away from any mental orgasm! I'm not asking for the secret, magic, "slice thru mix" button that Cliff hasnt told us about but surely there is a way/method that can be applied to the creation of all patches, that not only cuts thru the mix but also maintains the individual characteristics of each amp model/cab. (lets not even mention the high gain recto patch :cry:)

I'm aware that this must be a user issue as the shear number of satified users is testamount to this, however it does become frustrating spending hours dialing in patches only to have them radically adjusted during rehersals.

I appreciate people like Scott, that share their experience with others and I've read and incorporated their tips into the creation of my patches, however there must be some fundamentals that I'm missing. I would appreciate any tips/help on this critical issue of slicing thru the mix cause atm, I'm struggling.
 

Muris_Varajic

Power User
Tone_Loc,

cutting through mix depends on many things but most important one is
the setup you and your band play through.
Is it a PA or individual sources like unmiced drums and cabinets all around the room?
 

Scott Peterson

Global Moderator
Moderator
Post one your patches and detail your rig. Let us take a look.

Tone_Loc said:
Deltafit said:
At my last practise i was SLICING through the mix, i was having a mental orgasm believe me ( ;) ) and as an experiment for myself, i tried turning the presence wayyy down to what i would normally have (in the negative) and guess what, i was STILL slicing through the mix. If i was to do this prior 10.3 i would simply vanish out of the mix. And again, too much presence and i would start melting people faces! But again, like Scott says, i feel like i could (if i wanted) DIME the presence and it still wouldn't be too harsh or shrill. Something i could never do in previous firmwares (especially 10.0, 10.1, 10.2)
I am having a very difficult time getting my patches to sit in the mix let alone slice through it. Mental orgasm? I'd settle for a HJ from a two bit hooker atm :D
I have been rehersing with the unit for a while (not confident to gig with it yet), have upgraded to 10.3(agree with the improvements to this version) and just keep coming accross this same problem.
One issue I have is dialing up a patch that sounds great when played on its own(in the various environments), but literally dies as soon as the bass, drums, other guitar & vox come in. I then proceed to make adjustments to the EQ until it starts to cut through however they usually end up sounding "nasally". I've place filters, cutting the highs & lows and although it does clean up the overall sound, it makes the guitar sound so weak and watery when I play a solo part. I've tried using unmodified patches that others have created and its the same thing. (some of which are so boomy, I dont know they can be used live).

I have one, possibly two patches which I would say are acceptable, however I'm so far away from any mental orgasm! I'm not asking for the secret, magic, "slice thru mix" button that Cliff hasnt told us about but surely there is a way/method that can be applied to the creation of all patches, that not only cuts thru the mix but also maintains the individual characteristics of each amp model/cab. (lets not even mention the high gain recto patch :cry:)

I'm aware that this must be a user issue as the shear number of satified users is testamount to this, however it does become frustrating spending hours dialing in patches only to have them radically adjusted during rehersals.

I appreciate people like Scott, that share their experience with others and I've read and incorporated their tips into the creation of my patches, however there must be some fundamentals that I'm missing. I would appreciate any tips/help on this critical issue of slicing thru the mix cause atm, I'm struggling.
 

merlin17

Power User
If you're not cutting through without the guitar sounding too nasally on its own you are either not loud enough (yes, that's a possibility!) or the arrangement is bad/ the other instruments occupy the whole spectrum already or your monitor is placed wrong, etc...
or what the others said. ;-)
 

Deltafit

Inspired
Tone_Loc said:
Deltafit said:
At my last practise i was SLICING through the mix, i was having a mental orgasm believe me ( ;) ) and as an experiment for myself, i tried turning the presence wayyy down to what i would normally have (in the negative) and guess what, i was STILL slicing through the mix. If i was to do this prior 10.3 i would simply vanish out of the mix. And again, too much presence and i would start melting people faces! But again, like Scott says, i feel like i could (if i wanted) DIME the presence and it still wouldn't be too harsh or shrill. Something i could never do in previous firmwares (especially 10.0, 10.1, 10.2)
I am having a very difficult time getting my patches to sit in the mix let alone slice through it. Mental orgasm? I'd settle for a HJ from a two bit hooker atm :D
I have been rehersing with the unit for a while (not confident to gig with it yet), have upgraded to 10.3(agree with the improvements to this version) and just keep coming accross this same problem.
One issue I have is dialing up a patch that sounds great when played on its own(in the various environments), but literally dies as soon as the bass, drums, other guitar & vox come in. I then proceed to make adjustments to the EQ until it starts to cut through however they usually end up sounding "nasally". I've place filters, cutting the highs & lows and although it does clean up the overall sound, it makes the guitar sound so weak and watery when I play a solo part. I've tried using unmodified patches that others have created and its the same thing. (some of which are so boomy, I dont know they can be used live).

I have one, possibly two patches which I would say are acceptable, however I'm so far away from any mental orgasm! I'm not asking for the secret, magic, "slice thru mix" button that Cliff hasnt told us about but surely there is a way/method that can be applied to the creation of all patches, that not only cuts thru the mix but also maintains the individual characteristics of each amp model/cab. (lets not even mention the high gain recto patch :cry:)

I'm aware that this must be a user issue as the shear number of satified users is testamount to this, however it does become frustrating spending hours dialing in patches only to have them radically adjusted during rehersals.

I appreciate people like Scott, that share their experience with others and I've read and incorporated their tips into the creation of my patches, however there must be some fundamentals that I'm missing. I would appreciate any tips/help on this critical issue of slicing thru the mix cause atm, I'm struggling.
Yes you really need to give us a pretty detailed description of your setup for us to help you here. My band is a rock band and the majority of the time i'm playing high gain tones. However, we have NO stage volume at all. The entire band is direct. Electric drums, keyboards, bass player plugs into mixer from his effects unit etc. So that for one helps as i'm not trying to play over the top of loud drums or blasting guitar cabs. Straight off the bat i would recommend you perhaps boosting your mids. What i generally do is cut the mids of my keyboard player slightly so me and him are not fighting for that 500hz space in the mix.

Also what i would highly recommend is that you somehow go out front WHILE you are practising a song through the PA at gig volume levels. From there, see what you think of your tone whilst everything else is playing and you can then make much more precise judgements. If its too nasally, maybe cut some high-mids or add some lows. If its too piercing, cut some presence or use the parametric eq to block some high end. Have you seen Radleys eq tips? Check them out if not. Keep going out front to check and eventually you 'should' get somewhere near if you do that and keep tweaking.

What kind of tone are you going for? What amps/cabs have you been using? Guitars, pickups?
 

Tone_Loc

Member
Thanks Guys.

At rehersal, I use a PRS CU24 -(stock) into Axe FX --> FOH. I use a powered wedge for monitoring however all my sound comparisons are from the FOH mix.
Our drummer plays an electric kit at rehersals and full acoustic kit at gigs where we usually just mic the kick & snare.
Bass - plays a Musicman Sterling thru GK into a 4x10cab(on stage monitor) & (DI to FOH mix)
Vox.
Other guitarist play a horrible 50w Marshall combo :D (mic'd at gigs, not mic'd at rehersals)
We generally play your typical rock cover songs which a lot of you can relate to.

My playing volume was about right in relation to the overall mix. Going louder shouldn't be the solution as theres a quite a bit of "cutting" variation between the patches. I did make a point of balancing the volume of all my patches prior to rehersal.

Between the bass player and I, weve managed to determine that most frequencies below about 160hz from my unit, tend to muddy the mix so I've essentially filtered those. This now has a tendency to reduce the meatiness of some patches inparticular when Im playing a lone part but I can kind of live with that.

I dont believe our setup is any different to the hundreds or thousands of other bands out there. Ive yet to unpack my gear from last nights rehersal but I will post one of my better patches (soldano x99 Rythym) and a couple of the bad ones, which were butchered as I edited them. I initally adjusted only the global EQ, to suit the rehersal room but then went on to "adjusting" the individual patches ending up with a mess. I know the moment I play these now modified patches, they will sound like poo.

Short of assessing each one of my patches, am I expecting too much in thinking that there's a critcal element that's common in all the amp models in order to produce that "cutting thru" sound?
I would be grateful to anyone that could offer a crunch type patch/es (without User IR) that they can catergorically say, cuts thru in a live setup thats similar to mine. I would like to try them out, as they are, and then make my assessment.
 

merlin17

Power User
Attached is my main crunch rhythm patch.
You probably have to adjust some things because I play it with a Strat...

[attachment=0:dfaas25i]PD Crunch 1.syx[/attachment:dfaas25i]
 

Tone_Loc

Member
Thanks Merlin, I'll give that a try at our next rehersal.

Here are the dodgy patches in question.

The Soldano crunch seems to cut thru reasonably well however it lacks color when its played on its own.
The Recto patch is just bad, now. It was literally devoured the moment the drums & bass came in. (used in the Green Day song Holiday) This is result of the tweaks made at rehersal.

The other patches are just more or less of the same. Some kind of get close but most are just watery or thin relative to the overall FOH mix. Any adjustments I make to the patches whilst rehersing, ususally get them sounding nasally in order to cut thru.

As far as our band dynamic, nothing has really changed apart from me getting the axe fx and trying to intergrate it into the band. I've never had these issues (guitar cutting tru) in the past so I suppose I've never really had to pay too much attention to it, hence the reason why I think there is a fundamental I'm missing in my approach.

Any assistance would be most appreciated.

Cheers
 

Attachments

DonPetersen

Fractal Fanatic
hmm...

I simplified and edited your patch (attached), try it and see if you like it.

The weird stuff:
- first filter offset too high, not a big issue tho, tastes are different
- second filter (post amp) set to 'null' and it boosts 2.2 dB - why? use amp level instead, but levels were running pretty high anyway (clipping)
- reverb/delay setup, I see what you want to achieve here, (no reverb on delays and no delays on reverb) but the way to set this up is to have a shunt directly to the cab (for the dry signal) and to run the delay and reverb at 100% wet respectively. Control the amount of delay/reverb with the level parameter if you run them in parallel. (otherwise you have a doubling of signal strength - watch your headroom)
- more highpass filtering - why not lower the bass at the amp instead - it's pretty high (7.2) anyway

my edits:
removed all filters
lowered gain and master, as well as bass
switched to Recto2 cab
added modded tubescreamer before amp (no drive, high level, 36% mix)
added tape drive after cab

I haven't really tested the patch in a band context, but from my experience it should cut through a mix better now.

hope you like it.

dp
 

Attachments

Scott Peterson

Global Moderator
Moderator
I've tried to keep the same 'spirit' of your preset, but made a lot of very drastic 'simplification' changes.

A) If you want cut live, turn off the reverb. Reverb is nice for recording and for headphones; if you play surf... you need verb. Otherwise? Turn that **** off. It does NOTHING but wash you out in the mix. If you want 'depth' to your tone, use short delays.

B) Your gain staging is all amiss. You cut your amp output volume, but ramped it up in various other places. Unnecessary. I took the filters, the compressor and the gate out of the signal. The gate you could use if that's necessary to you; but it's not helping anything from here (even using my Strat).

C) I reset your 900 back to stock settings and adjusted from there. You had a lot of advanced parameters adjusted, that IMHO, do not need adjusting.

D) I took out your "Air" and "Drive" from your cabinet block. Unnecessary.

E) When you do a parallel routed effect, you need your input gain to 100%, your Mix to 100% and simply adjust your level to add the effect. I have it at -36db right now, adjust to taste.

Adjust the amp EQ as needed; I dropped a Tape Dist drive block after your amp, that seems to bring out the
mids better IMHO. Turn it off if you do not agree.

F) I just realized I might have deleted your pitch block; that was not anything other than a mistake on my part! Sorry!

[attachment=1:2vdd4a33]MB Crunch 1SP.syx[/attachment:2vdd4a33]

On your Soldano preset:

I blew out a lot of the filters and PEQ, not needed.

I redid your delay as noted above and then reset and reworked your amp block from stock in about 3 minutes.

I changed some of the settings in the tape drives, though they are not necessary, if you like the color than use them. I low passed them a bit.

I changed more, but can't remember. Have a go and see what you think.
[attachment=0:2vdd4a33]Soldano Crunch SP.syx[/attachment:2vdd4a33]
 

Attachments

eda123

Inspired
Scott Peterson said:
I am using a lot more of what the Ultra offers now, in terms of using drive1 & filters as 'stackable' boosts.

Hi all, i had pretty much decided to order a standard and just read this- can you not stack drive & filter with a standard? I must be misinterpreting the above statement..
 

merlin17

Power User
Scott Peterson said:
I've tried to keep the same 'spirit' of your preset, but made a lot of very drastic 'simplification' changes.

A) If you want cut live, turn off the reverb. Reverb is nice for recording and for headphones; if you play surf... you need verb. Otherwise? Turn that **** off. It does NOTHING but wash you out in the mix. If you want 'depth' to your tone, use short delays.

B) Your gain staging is all amiss. You cut your amp output volume, but ramped it up in various other places. Unnecessary. I took the filters, the compressor and the gate out of the signal. The gate you could use if that's necessary to you; but it's not helping anything from here (even using my Strat).

C) I reset your 900 back to stock settings and adjusted from there. You had a lot of advanced parameters adjusted, that IMHO, do not need adjusting.

D) I took out your "Air" and "Drive" from your cabinet block. Unnecessary.

E) When you do a parallel routed effect, you need your input gain to 100%, your Mix to 100% and simply adjust your level to add the effect. I have it at -36db right now, adjust to taste.

Adjust the amp EQ as needed; I dropped a Tape Dist drive block after your amp, that seems to bring out the
mids better IMHO. Turn it off if you do not agree.

F) I just realized I might have deleted your pitch block; that was not anything other than a mistake on my part! Sorry!

[attachment=1:2h2x5sqd]MB Crunch 1SP.syx[/attachment:2h2x5sqd]
Ahem, Scott, nice that you reworked my patch, but it wasn't me that asked for help.
Regarding your changes:

A) I have no problem with the reverb
B) IMO my gain staging is ok. The filter is for lead boost only (IA switch), the gate works nicely to quieten the Axe in pauses.
C) Your point with the advanced settings may be true, I built this patch way back and haven't gone through all the parameters yet.
Your amp settings are WAY different than mine, I'm not able to listen to you patch until Wednesday, but I will...
D) I like the Air setting...
E) The delay input is controlled by an expression pedal, therefore the low initial setting. I took out the controller before posting the setting.
I prefer parallel routing in a lot of cases. The mix is set to 100% wet. On delays I like to pedal control the input, not the output, so the output is set high and the input (initially) low.

G) You deleted the filters feeding the cab blocks, that makes them mono...
 

Jack Napalm

Power User
eda123 said:
Scott Peterson said:
I am using a lot more of what the Ultra offers now, in terms of using drive1 & filters as 'stackable' boosts.

Hi all, i had pretty much decided to order a standard and just read this- can you not stack drive & filter with a standard? I must be misinterpreting the above statement..

You can do this with the standard. The Ultra has two more filters available, the standard just has two. With the ultra their just more options but this is certainly doable with the standard.
 

Scott Peterson

Global Moderator
Moderator
eda123 said:
Scott Peterson said:
I am using a lot more of what the Ultra offers now, in terms of using drive1 & filters as 'stackable' boosts.

Hi all, i had pretty much decided to order a standard and just read this- can you not stack drive & filter with a standard? I must be misinterpreting the above statement..
Sure you can. And you can do the same things I am doing in the Ultra with the 4 available filters with GEQ or PEQ blocks in the Standard (or Ultra).

I'll detail it out on another thread when I am ready to do it correctly and with the attention it requires.
 
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