10.01 Ultra Shiva Lead Clip

I know what "Marshall amp" is talking about with the stiff attack. There are some tones on albums that have a softer attack to the riffing, it sounds like there's more give there than when I try to get similar tones with my Axe-Fx. A couple of examples.. Momento Mori from Flyleaf, or Memory and Humanity from Funeral for a Friend. There are some good heavy tones in there, but the tones sound like they have a little more give on the attack than what I've been able to get out of the Axe-Fx. That might just be how I'm dialing the Axe-Fx... lowering the treble and/or presence doesn't seem to work, since overall the tones on the records aren't darker than what I'm getting out of the Axe-Fx... it's just that the attack is softer.

I'm not sure that he's really trolling on that post... I haven't read his other ones, but I know what he's getting at.

And to top that off, on Pete Thorn's poll on Rig Talk where he puts the clip of the Axe-Fx's Marsha and the real Marsha, I thought the second part of the clip was the real Marsha, and as far as I know (unless Pete has flipped the script again!) the real Marsha was in the second part. The meat of the tones sound pretty close, but the attack of the pick on the strings is pretty different at least to my ears. Normal disclaimer here... both clips sound great. My point isn't really what's better or worse; they're both good, and depending on your preference, you'll lean one way or another.

Cliff has routinely addressed every shortcoming on the Axe-Fx that we've pointed out, and he's done it successfully (IMO). Right now, it sounds like the pick attack is one more area that could be addressed, at least regarding the hardness or immediacy of the attack. From the Egnater amp seminar, I remember learning that when a note is first struck, bringing the amp out of idle, there's a sag in the voltage supplied to the power amp (if I'm remembering correctly) which causes a bloom in volume after you start picking notes. I'm sure the Axe-Fx models this, but it doesn't seem to be exposed as an advanced parameter, and I wonder if it's the same value for every amp sim?
 
Finaldo said:
I know what "Marshall amp" is talking about with the stiff attack. There are some tones on albums that have a softer attack to the riffing, it sounds like there's more give there than when I try to get similar tones with my Axe-Fx. A couple of examples.. Momento Mori from Flyleaf, or Memory and Humanity from Funeral for a Friend. There are some good heavy tones in there, but the tones sound like they have a little more give on the attack than what I've been able to get out of the Axe-Fx. That might just be how I'm dialing the Axe-Fx... lowering the treble and/or presence doesn't seem to work, since overall the tones on the records aren't darker than what I'm getting out of the Axe-Fx... it's just that the attack is softer.

I'm not sure that he's really trolling on that post... I haven't read his other ones, but I know what he's getting at.

And to top that off, on Pete Thorn's poll on Rig Talk where he puts the clip of the Axe-Fx's Marsha and the real Marsha, I thought the second part of the clip was the real Marsha, and as far as I know (unless Pete has flipped the script again!) the real Marsha was in the second part. The meat of the tones sound pretty close, but the attack of the pick on the strings is pretty different at least to my ears. Normal disclaimer here... both clips sound great. My point isn't really what's better or worse; they're both good, and depending on your preference, you'll lean one way or another.

Cliff has routinely addressed every shortcoming on the Axe-Fx that we've pointed out, and he's done it successfully (IMO). Right now, it sounds like the pick attack is one more area that could be addressed, at least regarding the hardness or immediacy of the attack. From the Egnater amp seminar, I remember learning that when a note is first struck, bringing the amp out of idle, there's a sag in the voltage supplied to the power amp (if I'm remembering correctly) which causes a bloom in volume after you start picking notes. I'm sure the Axe-Fx models this, but it doesn't seem to be exposed as an advanced parameter, and I wonder if it's the same value for every amp sim?

OTOH, there was the infamous "CRACK" thread claiming otherwise. That there wasn't sufficient high transient attack.
 
The 'stiff' thing you hear in my clip in the OP is the MBC, which I had on and noted in the OP.

Everyone chasing that rabbit needs to realize you can simply turn it off and restore a lot of dynamic bounce to the tone. It's just a subjective thing. And I've since altered and changed my Shiva tones in my Axe-FX just based on playing with it more and tweaking it to taste. I like the 'finish' the MBC puts on the tone for my purposes. YMMV.

What I recorded off the hop and presented in the OP is just a snapshot of what I hit when I first loaded up the new firmware. It's not the 'penultimate' Shiva tone.
 
I haven't listened to your clip Scott, so my comment wasn't directed at what you recorded. It was a comment made from my own experience with my Axe-Fx. I'd call the Axe-Fx dynamic... it reacts well to how hard you pick. I just haven't been able to figure out how to get the attack to soften up, less immediate response on the attack, without making the overall tone too dark.

Maybe some sort of trick like Cliff's "brootalz" filter tip would work, to do a slight volume swell and eq shift after the initial pick attack. I dunno. Just something I've noticed...
 
Finaldo said:
I haven't listened to your clip Scott, so my comment wasn't directed at what you recorded. It was a comment made from my own experience with my Axe-Fx. I'd call the Axe-Fx dynamic... it reacts well to how hard you pick. I just haven't been able to figure out how to get the attack to soften up, less immediate response on the attack, without making the overall tone too dark.

Maybe some sort of trick like Cliff's "brootalz" filter tip would work, to do a slight volume swell and eq shift after the initial pick attack. I dunno. Just something I've noticed...

I do use that 'brootalz' filter trick, that's on the clip too. It doesn't really effect the attack, more the tightness of the bottom end on higher gain/OD tones.
 
Scott Peterson said:
I do use that 'brootalz' filter trick, that's on the clip too. It doesn't really effect the attack, more the tightness of the bottom end on higher gain/OD tones.
Right... which is why I said something like the "brootalz" filter trick, but messing with the initial volume and eq instead of just the low-end. :D
 
Scott Peterson said:
Finaldo said:
I haven't listened to your clip Scott, so my comment wasn't directed at what you recorded. It was a comment made from my own experience with my Axe-Fx. I'd call the Axe-Fx dynamic... it reacts well to how hard you pick. I just haven't been able to figure out how to get the attack to soften up, less immediate response on the attack, without making the overall tone too dark.

Maybe some sort of trick like Cliff's "brootalz" filter tip would work, to do a slight volume swell and eq shift after the initial pick attack. I dunno. Just something I've noticed...
I do use that 'brootalz' filter trick, that's on the clip too. It doesn't really effect the attack, more the tightness of the bottom end on higher gain/OD tones.
Sounds like this patch has all sorts of goodies built in... looking forward to when you get a chance to share the preset, Scott... and ditto for any Marsha patch you can share (I'm still trying to learn for the advanced tweakers).
 
Dpoirier said:
Scott Peterson said:
Finaldo said:
I haven't listened to your clip Scott, so my comment wasn't directed at what you recorded. It was a comment made from my own experience with my Axe-Fx. I'd call the Axe-Fx dynamic... it reacts well to how hard you pick. I just haven't been able to figure out how to get the attack to soften up, less immediate response on the attack, without making the overall tone too dark.

Maybe some sort of trick like Cliff's "brootalz" filter tip would work, to do a slight volume swell and eq shift after the initial pick attack. I dunno. Just something I've noticed...
I do use that 'brootalz' filter trick, that's on the clip too. It doesn't really effect the attack, more the tightness of the bottom end on higher gain/OD tones.
Sounds like this patch has all sorts of goodies built in... looking forward to when you get a chance to share the preset, Scott... and ditto for any Marsha patch you can share (I'm still trying to learn for the advanced tweakers).

There's no advanced editing in my amp blocks - they are default settings pretty much with just drive/MV/EQ changes. I drop Cliff's 'brootlaz' trick in, though slightly edited and tweaked for my playing style. I have an MBC block highly personalized to my playing and then a reverb.

But today I made a whole slew of changes in preparation for a gig and based on what I heard/felt in rehearsals in the past week.

I normally don't share any presets till I've tried them live; that's my personal 'acid' test.
 
Scott Peterson said:
Here's the pentultimate test, for me.

Eight years, different guitars, one take pushing the beat (oops)... but a valid test. One side (which?) is a PRS SC with a Bogner EL34 Reverb Shiva and Bogner 212 V-30 cab recorded with SM57's into a Phoenix Audio DRS-2 ($2199.00) preamp, Lynx Audio A/D in 2002 in my home studio. The other side, Hamer DuoTone, Axe-FX Ultra running direct (as detailed above) into same Lynx Audio A/D converters in 2010.

Which is which? Why?

http://soundcloud.com/spetersonmusic/06-2010-shiva-test

Actually both sound weird in their own ways but I'm sure both would pass as tube amps. :) My bet would be that the left side is the real thing and the right side.... well it's too bright which is what I expect from that Redwirez IR that you are using. This could also be a trick question! :lol: You never gave us the amp settings but if they were anything alike then this would be my guess.
 
i'm not familiar enough with the Shiva to tell the difference,but the left side is definately darker.the right side i can hear the pick hitting the strings.can't hear it on the left side.

Finaldo said:
there's a sag in the voltage supplied to the power amp (if I'm remembering correctly) which causes a bloom in volume after you start picking notes. I'm sure the Axe-Fx models this, but it doesn't seem to be exposed as an advanced parameter

wouldn't that be the SAG parameter on the 2nd amp page?
 
I've since redialed it at length and have lowered the presence and gain.

Remember a clip is just a snapshot in time, a moment. I'm not 'stuck' to edgier thing; it was simply how it dialed up the first day right after the upgrade.

And Clark Kent, it's not 'due to the RedWire IR's' I am using. And if it was, I'd just choose different distances or speakers to yield what want.
 
Scott Peterson said:
And Clark Kent, it's not 'due to the RedWire IR's' I am using. And if it was, I'd just choose different distances or speakers to yield what want.

What I meant to say was that to my ears I would try to change the rawness into cream. :) I'm currently trying to find an IR that let's me control the tone as much as possible in the AMP block and stock cabs do it a lot better for me at least. But you know your stuff so don't listen to what I say. :D
 
Wow.

I'm having a real problem here.


I was panning left right a couple of times and was planning on commenting that I really preferred the Left side because it was warmer and sounded more complex and deeper where the right side was more clinical.
BTW, I'm pretty sure that the right side was the Axe-FX because it's closest to the other track from the OP.



But then I put my headphones on backwards and WOW what a difference! Suddenly both tracks sound much more similar! It appears my ears react differently. I guess my hearing is in even worse shape than I thought.

Now I'm not sure anymore which I like best...

I need to get that hearing checked.
 
Dutch said:
Wow.
I'm having a real problem here.
I was panning left right a couple of times and was planning on commenting that I really preferred the Left side because it was warmer and sounded more complex and deeper where the right side was more clinical.
BTW, I'm pretty sure that the right side was the Axe-FX because it's closest to the other track from the OP.
But then I put my headphones on backwards and WOW what a difference! Suddenly both tracks sound much more similar! It appears my ears react differently. I guess my hearing is in even worse shape than I thought.
Now I'm not sure anymore which I like best...
I need to get that hearing checked.

Damn, that's not good. Hope you can get it fixed.
 
Dont know which is which but the left seems a louder and definitely brighter. It would seem very easy to correct this. They both have the same flavor - I wonder if two different shivas side by side would identical?

I would say the left sounded better, the right seemed a little muddy to me- could be the volume difference? If the right side is the axe, I bet a little presence would clear it up, mho.
 
guitarmike said:
Dont know which is which but the left seems a louder and definitely brighter. It would seem very easy to correct this. They both have the same flavor - I wonder if two different shivas side by side would identical?

I would say the left sounded better, the right seemed a little muddy to me- could be the volume difference? If the right side is the axe, I bet a little presence would clear it up, mho.

They are absolutely matched for volume output. Exact same volume as per the output meters. I made sure of that. Honest.
 
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