Morphosis
Official G66 Support
When it comes down to compare the Axe-Fx II Amp Sims with real Tube-Amps, I experienced a difference in "feel" I cannot achieve, no matter how much I tweak out the hell out of the Axe-Fx II. Before I will explain that in particular, let me say some words to myself in reference to the Axe-Fx II:
I am a Axe-Fx-Lover. I am the founder of the German axefx.de forum/community, organizer of the first German Axe-Fest in Leipzig 2013 and organizer of the coming up Axe-Fest in Daxweiler/Germany 2014. I would call myself a experienced Axe-Fx user since 2009 with a Axe-Fx Standard (since FW 7.18) and Axe-Fx II (since FW 6). I work as freelancer for the European distributor G66 for minor updates on their homepage.
I`ve experiment and done a lot of comparisons like tonematching my Koch Studiotone Tube Amp into the Axe-Fx (EQ matching with iZotope Ozone & Axe Standard, later on Axe-Fx II / FW6 inbuilt tonematching and wrote a tutorial on that..). Later with FW10 I tweaked a AxeFx Sim with the advanced parameters as long, as it sounds nearly like the actual Studiotone. Under recording situations I get the Axe-Fx to nearly 100% to react and sound almost identical to "the real thing".
I`ve experiment and A/B Impulse Responses to the actual speaker cabinet and convince myself, that this technique is really very, very accurate.
That said, i won`t discuss in this thread FRFR vs. Guitar Cabinets, won`t discuss Volume issues like the "Fletcher Munson" debate or gain/compression / loudness issues when it comes to questions, why some people feel, that the Twins, AC30ies, etc ... in Axe would be to gainy, etc...
Furthermore this thread is NOT about comparisons of actual Amps to their Axe-Fx counterparts UNDER RECORDING situations. NOT about FOH & PA and FRFR translations. I really think i know one or two things about these things. Hoepfully. Not, because i read about or believe, but because i did spent some hours and days to compare those things to myself and have made my experiences with that. (Matrix GT1000; Q12A, Bogner Cube 1x12", Fender & Koch Tube-Amps & Cabinets, Studio Monitors, dozens of live Gigs, FOH experiences, In-Ear experiences, etc...)
My Question is only to the people out there, who have the ability and done (!) AB`ìng their actual Amp to the Axe-Fx II Counterpart under "real guitar player in the room with their amp and guitar cabinet in the room".
And AB`ing Apples to Apples. Means:
Same Player, same guitar, same (or identical) Guitar Cabinet, same room:
Player -> guitar -> ABY-Box -> [AMP (Actual Preamp+Poweramp) ] -> [Guitarcabinet X]
vs.
Player -> guitar -> ABY-Box -> [Axe-Fx AMP-sim (of the actual Amp) ] -> [Guitarcabinet X]
Yes, i know: Udner recording situations it would sound the same. OK, no problem with that, but under "live" circumstances?
The observing Reader will now say: "Hey, you missed the Power Amp beetween the Axe and the Guitar Cabinet!"
YES! And this is exactly the point i came into trouble!
When i play my Koch Studiotone directly into the guitar cabinet, then this ... i don`t know how to describe it ... this magic thing happens: Call it "more bloomy, more chimey, spongy, three dimensional", whatever you want ... the tone bubbles out of the speaker.
When i use the Koch Studiotones FX Send (only Preamp) OR Line Out (inbuilt Power Soak = ON; Line Out is in reference to the schematics behind the PowerAmp) and go from their into the Matrix GT1000 into the Guitar Cabinet, something gets to be lost. The tone / notes sticks more at the speaker, note seperation get a bit lost, the "magic" disappear. Don`t get me wrong: IMHO the GT1000 is a very good, transparent, well built solid state amplifier, but something is missing than.
The same with the Axe-Fx II: If i play through the FX return of the Koch Studiotone (=2x EL84 PowerAmp) into the Guitar Cabinet the magic happens, i think immediately: "Yeah: That`s it! I`m home - no more questions. It FEELS 100% perfect and "tubish" correct". And when i play through the GT1000 i always think: "hmmm, ... sounds good but something .... something is missing, it could be a bit more .... WHAT IT WAS with the TubeAmp."
Some may say: Yeah, that`s a very subjective thing - and you`re right. But the difference is there! Some may say: "Yeah, are you aware that you "double" the Poweramp thing when playing the Axe-Fx PowerAmp Sim into the real Tube PowerAmp Sim?!". And yes, i know that! So i switch off the Axes PowerAmp Sim - no go. Sounds more bad in comparison to PowerAmp Sim ON with GT1000...
So whats with the Speaker Tab?! Catchwords "current feedback", dynamic resistance (!?), interaction Tube-Power-Amp <-> Guitar Cabinet? This is the last bastion, the missing link a solid state Amp with high damping can`t (and should not!) do & that`s the reason the Axe Sim has to simulate this issue. So i tweaked the Lo and Hi Res ... what i`ve found out:
"flatten" this curve and play through the Tube-Amp in comparison to boost / change or default this setting with the GT1000 makes both amplifier-systems a bit more comparable, but i can do what i want, tweak the hell out of it ... the "right feel", this "perfect interaction" beetween my guitar and the speaker cabinet won`t come to live. For example: A Clean "fenderish" sound and a strat with neck PU: If you stroke the strings you hear those "shimmering", "sparkling" highs to line with the percusive "bottom end" and you think both (lows and highs) are completely seperated... and fill the room. With the solid State Amp this seperation get lost, the whole thing sounds more as if the tone is more sticking to the speaker. It is something different, than only EQing differences. Frequency wise i have no issues with both PowerAmps - there they correspondend well to each other.
So, bring it to the table: Are there guys out there, who have tested their Fuchses, there Matchless, there Twins and Deluxes, their Plexis, Badgers or whatever directly side by side with the Axe-Fx in the room through the same guitar cabinet? And if yes:
- Did it feel the same? And if yes: Which PowerAmp did you use? And if not: What do you think why? What is missing?
I really always thought and believed two things:
First: The "extremely accurateness" Cliff so oftenly stated (and his recordings (!!!!!) give him right!) also in respect to the PowerAmp / Speaker Tab section is much more good enough to believe, that the "correct" and "accurate" amplification have to be done with a good solid state powerAmp (with no impact on the simulated dynamics and sound of the simulation).
Second: The GT1000 should be (one of the) best matches for the Axe to reach this theoretical requirement.
Don`t get me wrong: I highly respect the Axe-Fx as what it is! But when it comes to translate the actual Tube Amp "in the room" it must be amplified. But if the theroetical "correct" (means: No influence but "making loud" what its pulled in) amplification would be NOT a Tube Power Amp (because of their higly influences to the feel/sound - what should be done by the Axe itself) i really ask myself: Thank you for all those incredible boutique Amps, thank you for all those accurate and always improving Amp Simulations, but HOW can i play them really like the actual amp, if i feel there is such a missing link when it comes to amplification and/or interaction with a guitar cabinet?
So i ask you again, you boutique gear, real Amp Owners: Can you? Give the Axe-Fx plus PowerAmp plus Guitar Cabinet you the same feel and satisfaction if you compare that to your actual amp in the same room through the same guitar cabinet? And if yes: What amplification you use for? Are their "special tweaks" to achieve that?
I really, really like to make this experience without using a Tube-Poweramp. Is this possible???
At least: IMHO, what i`ve tried to describe is something, that the more cleanish to crunchy Players will feel, less the high-gain fraction ....
I am a Axe-Fx-Lover. I am the founder of the German axefx.de forum/community, organizer of the first German Axe-Fest in Leipzig 2013 and organizer of the coming up Axe-Fest in Daxweiler/Germany 2014. I would call myself a experienced Axe-Fx user since 2009 with a Axe-Fx Standard (since FW 7.18) and Axe-Fx II (since FW 6). I work as freelancer for the European distributor G66 for minor updates on their homepage.
I`ve experiment and done a lot of comparisons like tonematching my Koch Studiotone Tube Amp into the Axe-Fx (EQ matching with iZotope Ozone & Axe Standard, later on Axe-Fx II / FW6 inbuilt tonematching and wrote a tutorial on that..). Later with FW10 I tweaked a AxeFx Sim with the advanced parameters as long, as it sounds nearly like the actual Studiotone. Under recording situations I get the Axe-Fx to nearly 100% to react and sound almost identical to "the real thing".
I`ve experiment and A/B Impulse Responses to the actual speaker cabinet and convince myself, that this technique is really very, very accurate.
That said, i won`t discuss in this thread FRFR vs. Guitar Cabinets, won`t discuss Volume issues like the "Fletcher Munson" debate or gain/compression / loudness issues when it comes to questions, why some people feel, that the Twins, AC30ies, etc ... in Axe would be to gainy, etc...
Furthermore this thread is NOT about comparisons of actual Amps to their Axe-Fx counterparts UNDER RECORDING situations. NOT about FOH & PA and FRFR translations. I really think i know one or two things about these things. Hoepfully. Not, because i read about or believe, but because i did spent some hours and days to compare those things to myself and have made my experiences with that. (Matrix GT1000; Q12A, Bogner Cube 1x12", Fender & Koch Tube-Amps & Cabinets, Studio Monitors, dozens of live Gigs, FOH experiences, In-Ear experiences, etc...)
My Question is only to the people out there, who have the ability and done (!) AB`ìng their actual Amp to the Axe-Fx II Counterpart under "real guitar player in the room with their amp and guitar cabinet in the room".
And AB`ing Apples to Apples. Means:
Same Player, same guitar, same (or identical) Guitar Cabinet, same room:
Player -> guitar -> ABY-Box -> [AMP (Actual Preamp+Poweramp) ] -> [Guitarcabinet X]
vs.
Player -> guitar -> ABY-Box -> [Axe-Fx AMP-sim (of the actual Amp) ] -> [Guitarcabinet X]
Yes, i know: Udner recording situations it would sound the same. OK, no problem with that, but under "live" circumstances?
The observing Reader will now say: "Hey, you missed the Power Amp beetween the Axe and the Guitar Cabinet!"
YES! And this is exactly the point i came into trouble!
When i play my Koch Studiotone directly into the guitar cabinet, then this ... i don`t know how to describe it ... this magic thing happens: Call it "more bloomy, more chimey, spongy, three dimensional", whatever you want ... the tone bubbles out of the speaker.
When i use the Koch Studiotones FX Send (only Preamp) OR Line Out (inbuilt Power Soak = ON; Line Out is in reference to the schematics behind the PowerAmp) and go from their into the Matrix GT1000 into the Guitar Cabinet, something gets to be lost. The tone / notes sticks more at the speaker, note seperation get a bit lost, the "magic" disappear. Don`t get me wrong: IMHO the GT1000 is a very good, transparent, well built solid state amplifier, but something is missing than.
The same with the Axe-Fx II: If i play through the FX return of the Koch Studiotone (=2x EL84 PowerAmp) into the Guitar Cabinet the magic happens, i think immediately: "Yeah: That`s it! I`m home - no more questions. It FEELS 100% perfect and "tubish" correct". And when i play through the GT1000 i always think: "hmmm, ... sounds good but something .... something is missing, it could be a bit more .... WHAT IT WAS with the TubeAmp."
Some may say: Yeah, that`s a very subjective thing - and you`re right. But the difference is there! Some may say: "Yeah, are you aware that you "double" the Poweramp thing when playing the Axe-Fx PowerAmp Sim into the real Tube PowerAmp Sim?!". And yes, i know that! So i switch off the Axes PowerAmp Sim - no go. Sounds more bad in comparison to PowerAmp Sim ON with GT1000...
So whats with the Speaker Tab?! Catchwords "current feedback", dynamic resistance (!?), interaction Tube-Power-Amp <-> Guitar Cabinet? This is the last bastion, the missing link a solid state Amp with high damping can`t (and should not!) do & that`s the reason the Axe Sim has to simulate this issue. So i tweaked the Lo and Hi Res ... what i`ve found out:
"flatten" this curve and play through the Tube-Amp in comparison to boost / change or default this setting with the GT1000 makes both amplifier-systems a bit more comparable, but i can do what i want, tweak the hell out of it ... the "right feel", this "perfect interaction" beetween my guitar and the speaker cabinet won`t come to live. For example: A Clean "fenderish" sound and a strat with neck PU: If you stroke the strings you hear those "shimmering", "sparkling" highs to line with the percusive "bottom end" and you think both (lows and highs) are completely seperated... and fill the room. With the solid State Amp this seperation get lost, the whole thing sounds more as if the tone is more sticking to the speaker. It is something different, than only EQing differences. Frequency wise i have no issues with both PowerAmps - there they correspondend well to each other.
So, bring it to the table: Are there guys out there, who have tested their Fuchses, there Matchless, there Twins and Deluxes, their Plexis, Badgers or whatever directly side by side with the Axe-Fx in the room through the same guitar cabinet? And if yes:
- Did it feel the same? And if yes: Which PowerAmp did you use? And if not: What do you think why? What is missing?
I really always thought and believed two things:
First: The "extremely accurateness" Cliff so oftenly stated (and his recordings (!!!!!) give him right!) also in respect to the PowerAmp / Speaker Tab section is much more good enough to believe, that the "correct" and "accurate" amplification have to be done with a good solid state powerAmp (with no impact on the simulated dynamics and sound of the simulation).
Second: The GT1000 should be (one of the) best matches for the Axe to reach this theoretical requirement.
Don`t get me wrong: I highly respect the Axe-Fx as what it is! But when it comes to translate the actual Tube Amp "in the room" it must be amplified. But if the theroetical "correct" (means: No influence but "making loud" what its pulled in) amplification would be NOT a Tube Power Amp (because of their higly influences to the feel/sound - what should be done by the Axe itself) i really ask myself: Thank you for all those incredible boutique Amps, thank you for all those accurate and always improving Amp Simulations, but HOW can i play them really like the actual amp, if i feel there is such a missing link when it comes to amplification and/or interaction with a guitar cabinet?
So i ask you again, you boutique gear, real Amp Owners: Can you? Give the Axe-Fx plus PowerAmp plus Guitar Cabinet you the same feel and satisfaction if you compare that to your actual amp in the same room through the same guitar cabinet? And if yes: What amplification you use for? Are their "special tweaks" to achieve that?
I really, really like to make this experience without using a Tube-Poweramp. Is this possible???
At least: IMHO, what i`ve tried to describe is something, that the more cleanish to crunchy Players will feel, less the high-gain fraction ....