Plex delay level drop

Honken

Honken

Inspired
Hi good folks.
I have done some heavy duty patchwork today. Me and the other guitarist in my band have prepared 12 patches (each) to be live ready for Saturday. And we came across one issue that we found a workaround to deal with, but I am curious and want to know if this behaviour is normal and or if this is something other users have dealt with.

Axe FX 3, first gen.
FW 20.02
Cab sim off
Matrix Poweramp
Peavy 5150 4x12 cab

We use a global amp block to maintain the same gain staging and preserve the levels across multiple presets. But a few presets seemed to drop 2 db in level.

After searching for what could cause the level drop we found that when we took the Plex delay out of the chain, the levels where dead on the same. And when inserting it back in we could recreate the level drop with 2 db. This happens when the Plex delay are set in series.

After we discovered this we just set it in parallel and set the mix to 100, and blended in to taste. So we have solved the issue for now.

But I wonder if anyone else have experienced similar behaviour? Or if this is intended in the modeling? Not a huge deal, but curious. 🙂 Anyone?
 
Add 2 dB to the Level of the plex block when in series. I tend to add 2 to 3 dB for many “effects” like chorus, phaser, etc. because when engaged the overall volume goes down because the effect is in action taking away from the “direct” signal. Same reason real pedals have a level knob. Some settings of these effects don’t reduce volume, and some do. It depends what the effect is doing, its mix, etc.
 
Yes, I've done this to. But I forgot to mention the most important part. The db drop happens when the Plex delay are in series and bypassed.

Edit. Rookie mistake writing on the forum and leaving important info out! Sorry about that!
 
Honken said:
Yes, I've done this to. But I forgot to mention the most important part. The db drop happens when the Plex delay are in series and bypassed.

Edit. Rookie mistake writing on the forum and leaving important info out! Sorry about that!
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Did you have the Level of the plex turned up when this happened, or was it set to 0?

The Bypass mode type comes into play with this, but I’m assuming it’s set to default (Mute FX in I believe).
 
Yes, the bypass mode is Mute FX in. The level was turned to 0. And the block was bypassed. So only dry guitar coming out 2 db lower.
 
The reason I find it odd is that the settings where kind of sparse, and that the Plex delay was not engaged, but still it made the overall level drop.

Thank you for replying! Can you replicate it with your unit?
 
Bakerman said:
Plex delay doesn't use the same mix law as the normal delay block. When mix is increased from 0% the dry level begins to get reduced immediately.

One way to ensure unity dry gain in series: mix = 50%, level = +6 dB, then use input gain to adjust wet signal volume.
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I did not know this! Thank you! Will be testing this for sure!

Edit: So just by having the Plex delay in series and bypassed, this still applies?
I guess this has to do with the modeled unit not being true bypass or something like that?
 
I believe this behavior is a consequence of the fact the Plex Delay is not generally used as an echo effect like a Delay. So it doesn't get the special mix/bypass behavior of Delay and instead is treated more like a Reverb.
 
GlennO said:
I believe this behavior is a consequence of the fact the Plex Delay is not generally used as an echo effect like a Delay. So it doesn't get the special mix/bypass behavior of Delay and instead is treated more like a Reverb.
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Hm. I am not sure as to why this behaviour is happening with the block in it's bypassed state. I am totally with the explanation that the mix parameter can do level changes in series. But I wonder why the bypass state of the Plexi block change unity gain. It's probably something I'm missing. But is it possible that this is a bug? I just can't find a logical explanation.

Anyway, the workaround is ok.
 
Honken said:
I did not know this! Thank you! Will be testing this for sure!

Edit: So just by having the Plex delay in series and bypassed, this still applies?
I guess this has to do with the modeled unit not being true bypass or something like that?
Click to expand...
With Mute FX In bypass mode, yes. This only mutes the send to the effect engine, exactly like if you set input gain to 0%. The block's mix, balance and level controls will still affect the dry signal when bypassed.

The delay bypass behavior is no different. The mix control is different but if you turned it up enough to reduce dry level (above 50%) the dry signal would stay at that reduced level if you bypassed the block using Mute FX In bypass mode.
 
The "Mute Fx In" Bypass setting will also cause a decrease in volume when the block is bypassed if you don't normally use that setting.
 
Bakerman said:
With Mute FX In bypass mode, yes. This only mutes the send to the effect engine, exactly like if you set input gain to 0%. The block's mix, balance and level controls will still affect the dry signal when bypassed.

The delay bypass behavior is no different. The mix control is different but if you turned it up enough to reduce dry level (above 50%) the dry signal would stay at that reduced level if you bypassed the block using Mute FX In bypass mode.
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Thank you for this answer. If I understand this the way you explain it, the effect will be at unity only if set to thru?

Edit: this is bad English! I'm sorry!

The blocks bypass mode make its bypassed state vary from unity gain?

JoKeR III said:
The "Mute Fx In" Bypass setting will also cause a decrease in volume when the block is bypassed if you don't normally use that setting.
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I'm not sure I understand this completely. Maybe it's due to my not so bad English capabilities. Hehehe. You could say that autocorrect helps me a long way 😜

But, are you referring to the bypass mode and how the block is reacting with different modes? If so I believe I understand.
 
Looking at my replies I can easily see who knows the English language in this thread, and the one who don't. Blaargh!😂

If anyone is in doubt, is me wo messes things up... 😂

Thank you for helping out!
 
Honken said:
Thank you for this answer. If I understand this the way you explain it, the effect will be at unity only if set to thru?
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Thru bypass mode will pass dry at unity gain, just like a shunt.

Mute FX In can also do that if you turn the level control up the appropriate amount. So, thru isn't the only way to get unity gain with the block bypassed. You just need to do that extra step of setting the level. The 50% mix +6 dB technique is an easy way to do this consistently.
 
Bakerman said:
The mix control is different
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I believe that's the crux of the matter. The challenge is to get a nice even apparent loudness when bypassing/unbypassing when using "Mute FX In". For Delay, the solution is to leave the dry level unchanged up to 50% mix. For Plex Delay however, because the dry and wet reinforce the output, a different behavior is called for. It's not a perfect system and Honken has a case where there's a level drop, but it works pretty well for many cases. Or at least that's my understanding of the behavior and rationale, but please correct me if I have this wrong.
 
Bakerman said:
Thru bypass mode will pass dry at unity gain, just like a shunt.

Mute FX In can also do that if you turn the level control up the appropriate amount. So, thru isn't the only way to get unity gain with the block bypassed. You just need to do that extra step of setting the level. The 50% mix +6 dB technique is an easy way to do this consistently.
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Thank you! Finally the Norwegian guy gets it! Took some time, but whoha! Now I finally get it! 👍👌😁
 
GlennO said:
I believe that's the crux of the matter. The challenge is to get a nice even apparent loudness when bypassing/unbypassing when using "Mute FX In". For Delay, the solution is to leave the dry level unchanged up to 50% mix. For Plex Delay however, because the dry and wet reinforce the output, a different behavior is called for. It's not a perfect system and Honken has a case where there's a level drop, but it works pretty well for many cases. Or at least that's my understanding of the behavior and rationale, but please correct me if I have this wrong.
Click to expand...
Exactly. This is why I got the level drop. And now thanks to @Bakerman I got a way to implement my intended use in this case. As far as I can tell, this issue is now logical, and I can rest my case. Hehe
 
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