Why not Rivera?

life = tradeoffs. I'm not sure I want Fractal to spend a lot of time on a Rivera model that a few folks want, compared to perfecting a model that more people want. Only so many hours in the day....
 
Before you ask what's special about Rivera, you should play on a few to decide what is special or not instead of dismissing it with no experience with it.
I played one back in the day, on a gig, and remember being totally disappointed.

So yeah, experience.
 
One experience with one specific amp is not any kind of metric to judge a brand. Anyone that's ever plugged into an old Boogie Mark series amp without knowing how to dial one in would likely think they were terrible sounding.

Cool. What's special about Rivera amps that warrants a sim by Fractal?
 
Cool. What's special about Rivera amps that warrants a sim by Fractal?
Power amp harmonics and feedback if I remember correctly from the 90's was the thing that made them special.

...Still the soldano on stage beside it ate it's lunch
 
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Agreed. And if they don't you have all these tools to shape the sound further:
  • Input EQ
  • Output EQ
  • Advanced amp params
  • Ideal tab params that don't exist on the real amp
  • Graphic EQ before/after amp
  • Parametric EQ before/after amp
  • Filter block
  • All the stuff the Cab block offers
I get people wanting more amps as it's nice to have your absolute favorite amp in a nice preset option. But with the sheer amount of amps, there's usually a way to tweak one of the existing models to sound like your favorite amp or close enough. Once you get it right, save it to your block library for instant recall.
Just on this, I always find this to be an interesting ‘reason’ for not adding more amps. We can change advanced params etc so why should we get a new model for something that can be done internally? We have 18 plexi models, by the way.

The logical end point is surely ‘you could create any amp you want with advanced params, why don’t Fractal just have one amp and you change everything about it until you get the amp you want’, which is clearly an absurd proposition and not an end point we should encourage.
 
Just on this, I always find this to be an interesting ‘reason’ for not adding more amps. We can change advanced params etc so why should we get a new model for something that can be done internally? We have 18 plexi models, by the way.

The logical end point is surely ‘you could create any amp you want with advanced params, why don’t Fractal just have one amp and you change everything about it until you get the amp you want’, which is clearly an absurd proposition and not an end point we should encourage.
If it was only one amp model with tons of controls, people would be asking for presets so they don't need to figure them out. But when we already have almost 300 presets representing about 100 amps and their channels/variants, is there truly much that can be added that would present additional value?

There's already a huge ton of redundancy in the amp model list. You could cut it in half without losing anything of value, especially all those Plexi variants would be first on my chopping block when just a couple of really good ones would do.

Many amps on the market don't sound that different and the reason to own one over another has more to do with the feature set offered. I own a Victory VC35 instead of a Vox AC30 or Matchless DC30 because the Victory is way more practical. But I don't need it modeled because I can just use the Vox, Matchless or Morgan models to cover its tones.
 
I've never played a Rivera. But I did call the company once to ask some questions, and the man himself answered the phone. He talked to me at length about his product. Regardless of how his amps sound, his communication and product support impressed me.

Also, the OP asked why not Rivera? There may be some valid and useful answers here, but "we have enough amps already" or "because I don't like them" are bullshit replies.
 
There's already a huge ton of redundancy in the amp model list. You could cut it in half without losing anything of value, especially all those Plexi variants would be first on my chopping block when just a couple of really good ones would do.

I disagree. In my opinion the subtle differences matter. Cliff has said the Rectifiers and the Archon are basically just a 5150. Let’s get rid of the Rectifiers and the Archon then, we had the basis for it (really I think the 5150 is derived from the. SLO100, and what have that, so that’s another redundancy). And Boogies started as modified Fenders, so let’s all tweak Fenders until they sound like a good Mark amp. But these amps sound very different even if they share essential design elements, and I don’t think it’s fair to say that, e.g., because you don’t think you need all these Plexis, some should be eliminated. I hear and feel significant and meaningful differences in the Plexis, and their offshoots, like Hooks, and that’s all awesome to me. By your logic we should also get rid of the FAS amps that are based on other amps; speaking of Plexis, Cliff has created two that I know of that are completely incredible! And most amps seem to be relatively minor tweaks of influential designs, so, by your logic, there’s nothing of value to add.

I’m not an amp designer or electrical engineering enthusiast, and even if some person who knows what they’re doing has just modded an amp slightly and changed the name, it might heavily change the feel of an amp to me, giving me what I need to say what I’d like to say on the guitar. Cliff can see a straight line from the 5150 or the JCM800 to their variants, and he and others who can build amps know the differences, but I don’t, and all those variants are meaningful to me. This is why rock stars have their own models of amps, and it seems often that they love one particular well known amp but would love to tweak it a little to make it just right, and even a seemingly small tweak can have a massive effect, certainly for anyone who would love to use that sound themselves.

Okay, so your use case calls for less amps, but I think you are so wrong on thinking that ought apply to others. That difference between amps can absolutely be the difference on how you find your sound. What may be subtle or meaningless to you might be everything to someone else.
 
I disagree. In my opinion the subtle differences matter. Cliff has said the Rectifiers and the Archon are basically just a 5150. Let’s get rid of the Rectifiers and the Archon then, we had the basis for it (really I think the 5150 is derived from the. SLO100, and what have that, so that’s another redundancy). And Boogies started as modified Fenders, so let’s all tweak Fenders until they sound like a good Mark amp. But these amps sound very different even if they share essential design elements, and I don’t think it’s fair to say that, e.g., because you don’t think you need all these Plexis, some should be eliminated. I hear and feel significant and meaningful differences in the Plexis, and their offshoots, like Hooks, and that’s all awesome to me. By your logic we should also get rid of the FAS amps that are based on other amps; speaking of Plexis, Cliff has created two that I know of that are completely incredible! And most amps seem to be relatively minor tweaks of influential designs, so, by your logic, there’s nothing of value to add.

I’m not an amp designer or electrical engineering enthusiast, and even if some person who knows what they’re doing has just modded an amp slightly and changed the name, it might heavily change the feel of an amp to me, giving me what I need to say what I’d like to say on the guitar. Cliff can see a straight line from the 5150 or the JCM800 to their variants, and he and others who can build amps know the differences, but I don’t, and all those variants are meaningful to me. This is why rock stars have their own models of amps, and it seems often that they love one particular well known amp but would love to tweak it a little to make it just right, and even a seemingly small tweak can have a massive effect, certainly for anyone who would love to use that sound themselves.

Okay, so your use case calls for less amps, but I think you are so wrong on thinking that ought apply to others. That difference between amps can absolutely be the difference on how you find your sound. What may be subtle or meaningless to you might be everything to someone else.
You can explain it for them, but you can't understand it for them....
 
If it was only one amp model with tons of controls, people would be asking for presets so they don't need to figure them out. But when we already have almost 300 presets representing about 100 amps and their channels/variants, is there truly much that can be added that would present additional value?

There's already a huge ton of redundancy in the amp model list. You could cut it in half without losing anything of value, especially all those Plexi variants would be first on my chopping block when just a couple of really good ones would do.

Many amps on the market don't sound that different and the reason to own one over another has more to do with the feature set offered. I own a Victory VC35 instead of a Vox AC30 or Matchless DC30 because the Victory is way more practical. But I don't need it modeled because I can just use the Vox, Matchless or Morgan models to cover its tones.

It's the OP's wish. It doesn't have to make sense to you....
 
It's the OP's wish. It doesn't have to make sense to you....
No wish was posted. Only a question was posted. imo - "it's not unique enough" is a legit response.

As far as the OP is
concerned he posted this theead 2.5+ years ago and has not been back to it since, so my guess is that if he had a wish, it's probably changed to wanting a Revv model but I'll let him chime in on that himself directly.😁
 
I disagree. In my opinion the subtle differences matter. Cliff has said the Rectifiers and the Archon are basically just a 5150. Let’s get rid of the Rectifiers and the Archon then, we had the basis for it (really I think the 5150 is derived from the. SLO100, and what have that, so that’s another redundancy). And Boogies started as modified Fenders, so let’s all tweak Fenders until they sound like a good Mark amp. But these amps sound very different even if they share essential design elements, and I don’t think it’s fair to say that, e.g., because you don’t think you need all these Plexis, some should be eliminated. I hear and feel significant and meaningful differences in the Plexis, and their offshoots, like Hooks, and that’s all awesome to me. By your logic we should also get rid of the FAS amps that are based on other amps; speaking of Plexis, Cliff has created two that I know of that are completely incredible! And most amps seem to be relatively minor tweaks of influential designs, so, by your logic, there’s nothing of value to add.

I’m not an amp designer or electrical engineering enthusiast, and even if some person who knows what they’re doing has just modded an amp slightly and changed the name, it might heavily change the feel of an amp to me, giving me what I need to say what I’d like to say on the guitar. Cliff can see a straight line from the 5150 or the JCM800 to their variants, and he and others who can build amps know the differences, but I don’t, and all those variants are meaningful to me. This is why rock stars have their own models of amps, and it seems often that they love one particular well known amp but would love to tweak it a little to make it just right, and even a seemingly small tweak can have a massive effect, certainly for anyone who would love to use that sound themselves.

Okay, so your use case calls for less amps, but I think you are so wrong on thinking that ought apply to others. That difference between amps can absolutely be the difference on how you find your sound. What may be subtle or meaningless to you might be everything to someone else.
It's clear that the Recto, Archon or 5150 or SLO don't sound the same. I think there are clear ones that are different enough to warrant having them. To me the Plexis are all variations of a much narrower theme. Similarly I don't need every flavor and switch option of the Friedman BE ever made, just the best Friedman BE possible. I think it's fine for the developers of the modeler to also do some curation of their catalog, keeping only the absolute best sounding stuff (to them). We end users can very easily adapt to that.

If Fractal would add for example the Rivera OP asks for, then someone else will ask "what about this other Rivera model?" and the cycle continues even if there were 1000 different models of amps on offer. Users just want something that says it's a model of an amp they own, are interested in, is expensive or rare so they can select that one and enjoy the idea that they are now playing that specific model. It doesn't matter if they have ever tried the real thing and it doesn't really have much to do with getting your favorite tone.

Honestly if I was given free reign over the amp models list, I'd probably cut out everything except the FAS models and just add more of them. That would shut up all the "it doesn't sound exactly like my specific example of this or that amp" stuff and splitting hairs over them that is ripe in the digital modeling world.

I'm a bit tired of the current modeling paradigm of painstakingly replicating real amps. Fractal's modeling can clearly produce great tones so I'd rather see future products use that capability to make their own things that stand on their own merits, even if they are based on all the classic tones that have come before it. Just like I don't complain that a Friedman is not exactly like a Plexi or a Mesa Mark does not sound like a Fender, you can have digital models based on other stuff that are their own thing.

I'm sure there are plenty of people who very much disagree with that idea and just want their pile of famous amps.
 
It's clear that the Recto, Archon or 5150 or SLO don't sound the same. I think there are clear ones that are different enough to warrant having them. To me the Plexis are all variations of a much narrower theme. Similarly I don't need every flavor and switch option of the Friedman BE ever made, just the best Friedman BE possible. I think it's fine for the developers of the modeler to also do some curation of their catalog, keeping only the absolute best sounding stuff (to them). We end users can very easily adapt to that.

If Fractal would add for example the Rivera OP asks for, then someone else will ask "what about this other Rivera model?" and the cycle continues even if there were 1000 different models of amps on offer. Users just want something that says it's a model of an amp they own, are interested in, is expensive or rare so they can select that one and enjoy the idea that they are now playing that specific model. It doesn't matter if they have ever tried the real thing and it doesn't really have much to do with getting your favorite tone.

Honestly if I was given free reign over the amp models list, I'd probably cut out everything except the FAS models and just add more of them. That would shut up all the "it doesn't sound exactly like my specific example of this or that amp" stuff and splitting hairs over them that is ripe in the digital modeling world.

I'm a bit tired of the current modeling paradigm of painstakingly replicating real amps. Fractal's modeling can clearly produce great tones so I'd rather see future products use that capability to make their own things that stand on their own merits, even if they are based on all the classic tones that have come before it. Just like I don't complain that a Friedman is not exactly like a Plexi or a Mesa Mark does not sound like a Fender, you can have digital models based on other stuff that are their own thing.

I'm sure there are plenty of people who very much disagree with that idea and just want their pile of famous amps.
why-not-both-por-que-no-los-dos.gif
Really, at this point, your continued strident objections to a wish for a particular amp model are starting to sound like you got the one(s) you want, and it should stop there, and screw what anyone else wants....
 
@laxu Thank you for explaining your thoughts more. I disagree with you on these points too, but I feel like we could go back and forth forever about it. I do think the recreation of famous amps is an awesome thing, that the reasons many of these amps became famous, and the commonly used ways to exploit what they're capable of are so intuitive to many players, that their inclusion is truly indispensable. Despite my vehement disagreement, I won't try to dissuade you further.
 
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