In Praise of the Virtual Capo ***FW 5.02b1***

CAGOPOCO said:
To be honest I haven't found any improvement over the previous firmware, maybe that's just me...
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First of all, love the avatar :) Secondly, out of curiosity, what do you use it for? Cleans? Dirt? And how much shifting? And if you're not hearing an improvement, is it in latency or artifacts or it just overall doesn't sound any different?

Again, my tests were JUST with 1/2 step down with tracking set to default in the test with the full preset (if 3.0 is default; I don't know if I've changed it). I'm interested to get a feel for use cases that might differ from my experience. Thanks!
 
RobbyDeeMusic said:
I am glad that you ran these tests against the Drop pedal as I was very curious how well VC stood up against it. Thanks
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My pleasure. I saw tons of people saying that they were able to ditch the Drop pedal when the FM9 got 2.0b, just the same as many of did when the Axe Fx III initially got the improved pitch block in 2020.

It really all started, though, when I got the Variax last year and was amazed by how low latency it was. I was fully prepared to get it, try it out for 5 minutes and immediately return it, but I was pleasantly surprised. I began talking about it in the big "original" Line 6 Helix group on FB and one of the creators of the technology started chiming in about how it's not "low latency,' and emphatically said it's zero latency. I, obviously, protested, as this is simply not physically possible, especially with acoustic modeling and pitch-shifting - or both; and this I could tell by just playing the thing. So I set about testing it to get objective data (I am a scientist, after all, in the classical sense, not like I pour various colored liquids from one beaker to another). I figured while I was at it, testing the Variax, why not test other gear at the same time? I happened to have a Drop hanging around as well.

The former Line 6 employee (now James Tyler Variax brass) even offered to have me sign an NDA so he could show me the how the tech worked and "prove" that it was zero latency. He's a really nice dude, but I declined as that would have been futile; I had data that showed there was latency, no matter how brilliant his algorithms may be, and moreover, it's just not possible from a physics perspective to have zero latency polyphonic pitch-shifting. I mean, 18-20ms is amazingly good, and I'd love to see lower, but we'll never see zero until quantum computing is commonplace, and possibly not even then. This gentleman, to this day, hasn't budged from his zero latency stance.

In any case, as I've stated before, it's a labor of love. :)
 
Ugly Bunny said:
The former Line 6 employee (now James Tyler Variax brass) even offered to have me sign an NDA so he could show me the how the tech worked and "prove" that it was zero latency. He's a really nice dude, but I declined as that would have been futile; I had data that showed there was latency, no matter how brilliant his algorithms may be, and moreover, it's just not possible from a physics perspective to have zero latency polyphonic pitch-shifting. I mean, 18-20ms is amazingly good, and I'd love to see lower, but we'll never see zero until quantum computing is commonplace, and possibly not even then. This gentleman, to this day, hasn't budged from his zero latency stance.

In any case, as I've stated before, it's a labor of love. :)
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In my understanding, the trick in the Variax is that it uses six independent monophonic pitch shifters, so maybe the latency is better.
I own a JTV59.
The other benefit with this Guitar is the combination with the FM3 Scenes Function: you can switch the variax presets with a midi block. You just have to build a special Midi to RJ45 Cable (cause the RJ45 Port on the Guitar has MIDI IN/Out and AES digital Out!)
 
Petrocelli said:
In my understanding, the trick in the Variax is that it uses six independent monophonic pitch shifters, so maybe the latency is better.
I own a JTV59.
The other benefit with this Guitar is the combination with the FM3 Scenes Function: you can switch the variax presets with a midi block. You just have to build a special Midi to RJ45 Cable (cause the RJ45 Port on the Guitar has MIDI IN/Out and AES digital Out!)
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Um... first of all... WHAT??!?!?!? Can you link me how to build that? That would be fantastic.

Secondly, yes, you're right; 6 monophonic pitch shifters. And the latency is better, but only slightly, and, by my tests at least, about the same when you take into account my margin of error (around 1ms). I clocked the Variax (I have a JTV-59 as well!) at 18ms, and the Drop, Axe Fx III, Fm3, & Helix all at about 20ms. Now, we also need to realize that the modelers in my test all have a baseline 2-3ms latency built-in, so if you subtract that, then the actual pitch-shifting itself is around the same as the Variax which isn't a big digital modeler.

YMMV; I would really like to see someone else repeat my tests and either corroborate or update the data. But it's tedious and I'm afraid not many people care about this (latency) as much as I do lol!
 
Ugly Bunny said:
Even though I have the numbers to demonstrate that it is objectively faster & more consistent, it's nice to see others having the same experience and reporting in. I thought I was making it up, too; that's why I scrambled to record my tests to see if my ears/hands were deceiving me lol!!
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I've noticed the same thing, especially regarding the consistency of the latency. The previous version wasn't bad, but I'd seemingly get random notes with what felt like double or triple the latency (backed up by your measurements). Very often noticeable in a song with more space in the rhythm (think "Man in the box"). Really enjoying the improvement! :)
 
bg1974 said:
I've noticed the same thing, especially regarding the consistency of the latency. The previous version wasn't bad, but I'd seemingly get random notes with what felt like double or triple the latency (backed up by your measurements). Very often noticeable in a song with more space in the rhythm (think "Man in the box"). Really enjoying the improvement! :)
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Yeah, with my method of hitting the bridge/string one ever second or so, with 4.1, I would see some that were really good like in 5.0; about 20ms. But then there'd be a double/repeated note(??) and there would be one that was 65ms (!!) or more; and this was all within one 15-second sample test. I genuinely struggled measuring this and reporting on it accurately; when there are so many deviations, how does one know what the baseline is? The net result is that its usability varied widely; it worked in my relatively laid back 90's band where I play rhythm guitar, but would definitely not work for others.
 
Guys and gals; I just got even more excited about this feature: I'm going through and leveling my presets and getting all my PP Performance pages set up and I got to my RHCP "Give it Away" preset. I was jamming out for a couple minutes before I remembered that this is a downtuned preset. Playing it used to feel like a slog since it's clean(ish), syncopated, and funky. but not anymore. It felt super natural and not like a slog at all.

I've said it like five times in this thread, but well done, @FractalAudio and team. It's wonderful right now.
 
Tried a pitch block plus drive patch going into the input of an actual amp tonight since I recalled that really sounding off with the old capo. So my signal chain was

guitar-fm3-pitch(4 step drop)-drive block ( Maxon od808)-amp(mesa mark v in iic+ mode)-guitar cab

Best “dropped modern metal” ( think Arch Enemy etc ) tone I have ever had. And it felt completely natural and like I was just playing a guitar tuned down to C. I’m pretty darned happy. That new drive too. Oh man.
 
JamesI75 said:
Tried a pitch block plus drive patch going into the input of an actual amp tonight since I recalled that really sounding off with the old capo. So my signal chain was

guitar-fm3-pitch(4 step drop)-drive block ( Maxon od808)-amp(mesa mark v in iic+ mode)-guitar cab

Best “dropped modern metal” ( think Arch Enemy etc ) tone I have ever had. And it felt completely natural and like I was just playing a guitar tuned down to C. I’m pretty darned happy. That new drive too. Oh man.
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I don't want to sound too hyperbolic, but at one point I had to take my headphones off to see if I was downtuned. I was. I'm honestly hesitant to update to the official release version when it comes in case they "fix" whatever made this magic happen without realizing it lol!
 
Ugly Bunny said:
First of all, love the avatar :) Secondly, out of curiosity, what do you use it for? Cleans? Dirt? And how much shifting? And if you're not hearing an improvement, is it in latency or artifacts or it just overall doesn't sound any different?

Again, my tests were JUST with 1/2 step down with tracking set to default in the test with the full preset (if 3.0 is default; I don't know if I've changed it). I'm interested to get a feel for use cases that might differ from my experience. Thanks!
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I mostly use it with edge of breakup and mid gain tones. Tracking set to 5 (even if I set at 3 it doesn't make much difference) and +1, -1 or -2 shifting.
I still feel quite a bit of latency, too much in my opinion. I didn't make any scientific tests but from memory it doesn't seem any better than the previous firmware.
Anyhow I'm quite surprised by the silence of FAS about these improvements considering how many people asked for a better VC.
 
CAGOPOCO said:
Anyhow I'm quite surprised by the silence of FAS about these improvements considering how many people asked for a better VC.
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Agreed. I'm guessing they're doing some tests themselves to see if I'm full of s*** since obviously, out of context it looks like I'm bipolar on this issue and, if not (which I'm not full of s*** as I've got objective data to back it up, lol) then they're reviewing what changes were made that might have improved the VC. Its fun to speculate what they might be doing, but in reality, they're probably going about business as usual. As has been told to me numerous times in this forum and others, there aren't a lot of people who even care about the VC - but we're a very vocal minority. I think for gigging musicians who use poly pitch shifting, it's a live or die issue, but for anyone else, it's "meh." I don't expect to hear/see any statement, honestly, but I'm curious as well because I know I'm not making this up :)
 
Ugly Bunny said:
Agreed. I'm guessing they're doing some tests themselves to see if I'm full of s*** since obviously, out of context it looks like I'm bipolar on this issue and, if not (which I'm not full of s*** as I've got objective data to back it up, lol) then they're reviewing what changes were made that might have improved the VC. Its fun to speculate what they might be doing, but in reality, they're probably going about business as usual. As has been told to me numerous times in this forum and others, there aren't a lot of people who even care about the VC - but we're a very vocal minority. I think for gigging musicians who use poly pitch shifting, it's a live or die issue, but for anyone else, it's "meh." I don't expect to hear/see any statement, honestly, but I'm curious as well because I know I'm not making this up :)
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I am 100% sure the latency has improved. I have zero doubts. Definitely usable now.
 
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