Gig volume with FRFR/Monitors

L

Lodeman

Member
Hi! I have to play pretty loud in my church, around 95-100db (no in-ears and drums without any treatment. )

I'm setting up my presets at home through a pair of HS7.

The tones/feel I have at 85-95db are VERY good.

However, the issue is that I find the feel slight different when playing at GIG volume (95+). More stiff, less smooth, less bloom...more direct feel with picking. It is more about the feel and less about tone.

I'm aware of Fletcher Munson equal loudness effect. I made my preset at 85-90db (PA level), then I raise it to around 100db (peaks) and aplly a PEQ for the FRFR with high/low cuts and shelves.

Is this feel thing normal at high volumes with FRFR/monitors?

Is there any advanced parameter to mess with in order to help?

Thanks
 
What are you monitoring through live? That can greatly affect the feel as much as volume. Most monitor wedges aren’t going to sound anything like HS7s, and aren’t all that flat unless you’re spending $$$ on high end brands like Martin, L Acoustics, etc.

If you’re monitoring through your own FRFR like a CLR or something, you should dial your presets in on that.
 
Sheer volume can do that and the room can affect it as well. Happened to me often when I used real amps. It just all felt “loud” with no room for dynamics, like the sonic space was just “full” or something. Sometimes I couldn’t even perceive pitch, like I played a G note but couldn’t tell if it was in tune (but factually it was).
 
Lodeman said:
Hi! I have to play pretty loud in my church, around 95-100db (no in-ears and drums without any treatment. )

I'm setting up my presets at home through a pair of HS7.

The tones/feel I have at 85-95db are VERY good.

However, the issue is that I find the feel slight different when playing at GIG volume (95+). More stiff, less smooth, less bloom...more direct feel with picking. It is more about the feel and less about tone.

I'm aware of Fletcher Munson equal loudness effect. I made my preset at 85-90db (PA level), then I raise it to around 100db (peaks) and aplly a PEQ for the FRFR with high/low cuts and shelves.

Is this feel thing normal at high volumes with FRFR/monitors?

Is there any advanced parameter to mess with in order to help?

Thanks
Click to expand...
Build a pair of celestion spec cabs for the f12-x200 frlr speakers. Biggest improvement to feel I've had with my Axe. I've tried hs50m studio monitors, yamaha PA system, and headrush FRFR12s. Those celestion cabs have made playing so enjoyable.
 
Volume definitely changes things .... no matter if it's FR or regular. The most constant monitoring is probably IEMs especially if you've an EQ in front of them ... but even using them means live theres usually other stuff being fed into them as well as your guitar and that's missing when you're dialling at home.

It always gets me .... no matter what type of rig it is when I try to dial it in at home I turn it up to what I believe is loud - basically uncomfortably loud as I'm only a few metres away and it's not a big room. But it's never as loud as it gets at a gig - the sound has room to escape and also has to battle both volume and frequencies with drums, vocals, keys and general noise. A couple of hundred half sloshed people bellowing at each other make a hell of a background noise! (OK you mightn't have that if you're a worship band I suppose)

I've tried leaving my stage volume settings as they were at the last gig when finalising dialling and volume levelling new tones at home ..... but my ears object too much. I know my current average gig volume is not nearly as much volume as I used to have to play at years ago ... I should be deaf as a post!

So for me at least I have resigned myself to 'getting fairly close' and living with it at the gig if I don't get an opportunity to do a quick tweak. I can usually get it 'close enough for blues' though after all these years. I don't really go in for the full authenticity stuff either so I don't have a whole lot of different amps or cabs in play .... so the amp/cab base can be copied to a new preset and it gives a guide to the relative volume even if it might sound a bit flat and lifeless at low volume.
 
philipacamaniac said:
What are you monitoring through live? That can greatly affect the feel as much as volume. Most monitor wedges aren’t going to sound anything like HS7s, and aren’t all that flat unless you’re spending $$$ on high end brands like Martin, L Acoustics, etc.

If you’re monitoring through your own FRFR like a CLR or something, you should dial your presets in on that.
Click to expand...
Through a Celestion F12-x200 speaker/cab. It is very good! Maybe it is a general issue with high volumes.

chris said:
Sheer volume can do that and the room can affect it as well. Happened to me often when I used real amps. It just all felt “loud” with no room for dynamics, like the sonic space was just “full” or something. Sometimes I couldn’t even perceive pitch, like I played a G note but couldn’t tell if it was in tune (but factually it was).
Click to expand...
That makes sense! Thanks
Justincase said:
Build a pair of celestion spec cabs for the f12-x200 frlr speakers. Biggest improvement to feel I've had with my Axe. I've tried hs50m studio monitors, yamaha PA system, and headrush FRFR12s. Those celestion cabs have made playing so enjoyable.
Click to expand...
Yes!! This is what I am using!! But only one. That's why I suspect it is a "normal" issue when at high volumes. This feel thing is less obvious with cleans, but with lead tone and higher registers are very noticeable for me.
maxdown said:
Volume definitely changes things .... no matter if it's FR or regular. The most constant monitoring is probably IEMs especially if you've an EQ in front of them ... but even using them means live theres usually other stuff being fed into them as well as your guitar and that's missing when you're dialling at home.

It always gets me .... no matter what type of rig it is when I try to dial it in at home I turn it up to what I believe is loud - basically uncomfortably loud as I'm only a few metres away and it's not a big room. But it's never as loud as it gets at a gig - the sound has room to escape and also has to battle both volume and frequencies with drums, vocals, keys and general noise. A couple of hundred half sloshed people bellowing at each other make a hell of a background noise! (OK you mightn't have that if you're a worship band I suppose)

I've tried leaving my stage volume settings as they were at the last gig when finalising dialling and volume levelling new tones at home ..... but my ears object too much. I know my current average gig volume is not nearly as much volume as I used to have to play at years ago ... I should be deaf as a post!

So for me at least I have resigned myself to 'getting fairly close' and living with it at the gig if I don't get an opportunity to do a quick tweak. I can usually get it 'close enough for blues' though after all these years. I don't really go in for the full authenticity stuff either so I don't have a whole lot of different amps or cabs in play .... so the amp/cab base can be copied to a new preset and it gives a guide to the relative volume even if it might sound a bit flat and lifeless at low volume.
Click to expand...
Very interesting! Maybe I have to resign myself and adjust my expectations when playing live. TBH it is very good as it is, but compared to lower levels at home it is little frustrating. Thanks
 
Justincase said:
Build a pair of celestion spec cabs for the f12-x200 frlr speakers. Biggest improvement to feel I've had with my Axe. I've tried hs50m studio monitors, yamaha PA system, and headrush FRFR12s. Those celestion cabs have made playing so enjoyable.
Click to expand...
I was looking at the Celestion FR speakers. I can build my own cabs since I have a woodshop. Where can I see cab specs for these speakers? I've had my FM3 into a Headrush 112 for about a month. Still not used to it. I think it's the horn bugging me. Either that or I just need to get used to a modeled FRFR amp. I was thinking it might sound more natural into 12" speakers with no horn. What amp are you using to drive the speakers?

Had a practice last weekend and I brought my amp rig and also the FM3. I ended up trying out the FM3/Headrush and it wasn't bad at all. Higher volume cures some problems for me. Using some Burg presets, the 4 amps and a Gig rig he put up. Plus a couple I had a stab at making myself. Practicing again next week and I'll be bringing both rigs because I'm not ready to do it all with the FM3. I'm struggling with having too much control. Big learning curve on this thing! Both with dialing in presets and getting used to the sound.
 
skolacki said:
I was looking at the Celestion FR speakers. I can build my own cabs since I have a woodshop. Where can I see cab specs for these speakers? I've had my FM3 into a Headrush 112 for about a month. Still not used to it. I think it's the horn bugging me. Either that or I just need to get used to a modeled FRFR amp. I was thinking it might sound more natural into 12" speakers with no horn. What amp are you using to drive the speakers?

Had a practice last weekend and I brought my amp rig and also the FM3. I ended up trying out the FM3/Headrush and it wasn't bad at all. Higher volume cures some problems for me. Using some Burg presets, the 4 amps and a Gig rig he put up. Plus a couple I had a stab at making myself. Practicing again next week and I'll be bringing both rigs because I'm not ready to do it all with the FM3. I'm struggling with having too much control. Big learning curve on this thing! Both with dialing in presets and getting used to the sound.
Click to expand...
 

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I would agree it probably is just needing to tweak the eq at higher volumes. I absolutely love these celestion f12-x200 cabs. I've A/B'd them against my hs50m studio monitors, Yamaha club series PA, and a pair of headrush FRFR12s. Couldn't believe the difference these things make. Best upgrade I've made. The headrush are fine at lower volume but the highs just seem harsh at high volume. My guess is the class D amp maybe the culprit. Im driving the celestions with a class H with tons of headroom and clean low THD power(530watts per channel).They seem to really shine at high volumes. Smooth highs and palm mutes you can feel in your chest. Good stuff for sure. The headrush cabs I still use for backing tracks and drum machine playback
 
I would like to thank @austinbuddy for the reply on the Facebook group about this issue! He was spot on! Tomorrow I will try the preset live, but definitely is a lot better now.

He told me to try raising the SPEAKER COMP! The gain reduction was zero with the speaker compression on 2. I had to crank to 8 in order to have 4Db GR (Drive/Lead Scene) and also I raised the Time constant to 100ms. The "stiffness" is less pronounced. Thanks!
 
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Lodeman said:
I would like to thank @austinbuddy for the reply on the Facebook group about this issue! He was spot on! Tomorrow I will try the preset live, but definitely is a lot better now.

He told me to try raising the SPEAKER COMP! The gain reduction was zero with the speaker compression on 2. I had to crank to 8 in order to have 4Db GR (Drive/Lead Scene) and also I raised the Time constant to 100ms. The "stiffness" is less pronounced. Thanks!
Click to expand...
What tabs have "speaker compression" "gain reduction"?
 
Justincase said:
I would agree it probably is just needing to tweak the eq at higher volumes. I absolutely love these celestion f12-x200 cabs. I've A/B'd them against my hs50m studio monitors, Yamaha club series PA, and a pair of headrush FRFR12s. Couldn't believe the difference these things make. Best upgrade I've made. The headrush are fine at lower volume but the highs just seem harsh at high volume. My guess is the class D amp maybe the culprit. Im driving the celestions with a class H with tons of headroom and clean low THD power(530watts per channel).They seem to really shine at high volumes. Smooth highs and palm mutes you can feel in your chest. Good stuff for sure. The headrush cabs I still use for backing tracks and drum machine playback
Click to expand...
What brand amp are you using that is class H? I'm thinking of building a couple of these cabs myself and have only just started looking into how to power them.
 
Fat Biscuit said:
What brand amp are you using that is class H? I'm thinking of building a couple of these cabs myself and have only just started looking into how to power them.
Click to expand...
I'm just using a cheap Behringer epx4000 I found on marketplace. I got it for next to nothing just to test these out but honestly it sounds great so I cancelled the class A/b crown I had just ordered. Fans are kinda loud tho. My guess is as far as amps go as long as you have alot of headroom and alot of clean low THD power it doesn't really matter. I'm only running the amp gain at 1-2 o'clock since it is 530w per channel. It doesn't even come close to clipping.
 
Nice! Thanks for posting that!

Do you guys think a 50 watt tube power amp would be loud enough to drive a 112 cab loaded with the Celestion FR speaker? I'm thinking I would need to pick up a mono PA style power amp to avoid the tonal coloring of a tube output. Then again, maybe the tube output is what my ears need.
 
skolacki said:
Nice! Thanks for posting that!

Do you guys think a 50 watt tube power amp would be loud enough to drive a 112 cab loaded with the Celestion FR speaker? I'm thinking I would need to pick up a mono PA style power amp to avoid the tonal coloring of a tube output. Then again, maybe the tube output is what my ears need.
Click to expand...
I know jiveturkey tried using a 5150 tube amp to drive the F12 and was not happy with it. For just one cab I'd probably get a bridgeable Class A/B or H Solid state amp. I'd go with 400watts if you plan to drive it hard. It wont have to work hard and won't clip/distort. I just wouldn't crank the amp. BE CAREFUL. Those can be had pretty cheap. Alot of guys are using seymour duncan power stages. They are class D but I'm guessing the newer high dollar class D amps are better these days. IDK. They are expensive tho. Google class D vs A/B and watch paul from PS audio take on the subject. VERY informative. That's why I decided to go the route I did. I went down the audiophile rabbit hole 😂
 
The audiophile rabbit hole. I can't really afford to go there but I try lol. I've been out of it for awhile. Haven't heard a of a Class H amp. I'll check it out.
 
skolacki said:
The audiophile rabbit hole. I can't really afford to go there but I try lol. I've been out of it for awhile. Haven't heard a of a Class H amp. I'll check it out.
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It's basically a class A/B without the toroidal transformer. So it's half the weight. More efficient. It uses a stepping power transformer instead (I think).
 
Measuring and understand your room might be helpful as well, if your room is not untreated. There might be dips or boosts in lower frequency.
 
skolacki said:
Nice! Thanks for posting that!

Do you guys think a 50 watt tube power amp would be loud enough to drive a 112 cab loaded with the Celestion FR speaker? I'm thinking I would need to pick up a mono PA style power amp to avoid the tonal coloring of a tube output. Then again, maybe the tube output is what my ears need.
Click to expand...
I was using a Seymour Duncan PS170. Very clean! But I'm testing the EHX 44 Magnum (small and I can place it under my board). On 9 o'clock the 44 was very loud.

I have to check that but I suppose the range without any distortion is small. For example, maybe from 0 to 3 (0-10) we have the maximum clean output.

Edit: Magnum 44 is smaller than PS170 but the power supply is quite big!
 
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