Lexicon PCM70: Pan & Circular Delays + TC1210 Chorus

Thanks man! I think the difference might be that the PCM81 is more accurate, so all those volume differences between L/C/R and slightly offset panning might not be there on a PCM81. It seems like one these things that they probably fixed. But at the same time, a bit of the character from way those presets sounded on the PCM70 would be lost.
 
Thanks man! I think the difference might be that the PCM81 is more accurate, so all those volume differences between L/C/R and slightly offset panning might not be there on a PCM81. It seems like one these things that they probably fixed. But at the same time, a bit of the character from way those presets sounded on the PCM70 would be lost.
any update in the Lukather preset?
 
Vehemently disagree with this. Dug my PCM70 out of the closet and compared the diffusion to the Axe-Fx III. The Axe-Fx III is vastly superior. The PCM70 sounds metallic and comb-filtered. The Axe-Fx III sounds like a little reverb is added to each delay. You can stand on my lawn and yell all you want but I'm not changing this.
They didn't really "fix" this until the PCM80 generation. On the PCM80/81, you also have the Reverb Size parameter, which also affects the diffusor (whether the Reverb is on or off!). I believe that it sets the time for the delays inside the diffusor, as when it gets to the higher settings, it easily reaches 10's of milliseconds.

I noticed that my PCM80 didn't really start sounding like the PCM70 until I increased to Reverb size to at least a moderate value. It definitely is possible to make ugly, comb-filtered, washed-out diffusion in the PCMs, but just like in modulation FX, I find the ability to go "too far" is always a good thing, since you can do other things to compensate and even make new, unexpected sounds with it...there certain are some awful RvbSize/Diff% combinations I've found on there, but there are also many beautiful "sweet spots" where there is just the right amount of energy being robbed from the transients, the sound is stretched out over time just enough, and it imparts a subtle kind of filtering all at once (that last part makes programming more complex, since there's real filters on there too—but that's part of the fun ;) ). I think the PCM70 could have sounded better here if they had just given the user a choice on the diffusor scaling as well, so many more "sweet spots" could have been achieved!
 
In this clip, do you remember what the Axe-FX diffusion is set to?

And also, if it's set higher, can it get as "soft" as the PCM diffusor sounds?
The diffusion mix is set to 100 %, and the time at 3.0 %. The diffusion parameter on the PCM70 is controlling the time, the mix is always at 100 %. The 3.0 % is matched to the same schmear (or time stretching) as the PCM70 at 42 %. Increasing the value doesn't really make diffusion any softer until the repeats are way too schmeared and stretched compared to the PCM70. Basically at or above what would be 100% on the PCM70.

But as you pointed out, the diffusion in the Axe is harder sounding than the PCM70. There is also more comb filtering (or other harsh qualities) in the Axe at those short times, so 3.0 % might sound good, but 3.1 % might sound really strange and hard, instead of softer. It's very picky about the exact value.

I would very much like a "diffusion style" switch, so we could get that fluffy and granular diffusion from the PCM70.
 
First and foremost, a huge thanks to MrB, who has sent me a plethora of clips, and also has taken the time to measure his PCM70 with a pulse generator. He supplied me with more high quality clips and numbers than I could ever dream of.

Ok, here are the details:
  • The PCM70 is quite a wonky unit. There is a big difference between the left/right outputs, and it changes with preset configurations and panning of the voices. The outputs have a +-1.5 dB margin of error according to the service manual (which is a lot). From the 3 units that I have good enough clips of to measure this, it's always the right channel that is lower in volume. Listening carefully to soundboard recordings of Lukather, his units appear to have this "issue" as well. I suspect it's partly due to tolerances, and also the summing circuit at outputs that enable mono operation from one jack. Anyway, I've matched this behaviour to 0.05 dB accuracy across both presets.
  • The diffusion in the Axe-Fx sounds quite different to the Lexicon. I've confirmed that the diffusion parameter in the PCM70 is not a mix control, but a time control. I measured the length of the diffusion on PCM70s Circular Delays preset, and then matched the length in the Axe-Fx. The diffusion in the PCM70 causes the actual delay times to drift. I figured out a neat way to capture this.
The presets have been converted to multitap delay blocks. Put them in your "Documents\Fractal Audio\Axe-Edit III\blocks" folder. They are meant to be used in parallel to the dry signal patch.



Thank you. I'm been a fan of these delays for years. I've had versions of them on the Axe-FX over the years...but firmware upgrades change and degrades the settings over time. I'm excited to try your new and improved version. I appreciate the time and expertise. Thanks for sharing.
 
The diffusion mix is set to 100 %, and the time at 3.0 %. The diffusion parameter on the PCM70 is controlling the time, the mix is always at 100 %. The 3.0 % is matched to the same schmear (or time stretching) as the PCM70 at 42 %. Increasing the value doesn't really make diffusion any softer until the repeats are way too schmeared and stretched compared to the PCM70. Basically at or above what would be 100% on the PCM70.

But as you pointed out, the diffusion in the Axe is harder sounding than the PCM70. There is also more comb filtering (or other harsh qualities) in the Axe at those short times, so 3.0 % might sound good, but 3.1 % might sound really strange and hard, instead of softer. It's very picky about the exact value.

I would very much like a "diffusion style" switch, so we could get that fluffy and granular diffusion from the PCM70.
any update in your preset?if you want/can send it without the cabs to give a try with my cabs
 
any update in your preset?if you want/can send it without the cabs to give a try with my cabs
You mean the Lexicon blocks? They haven't seen any new updates. I feel pretty done with these, can't really see how I could improve them.

The X88R Lukather preset is coming when Cygnus leaves the beta stage. I've done more proper emulations of the Eventide H3000 and TC1210 during the last couple of weeks, so it's coming!
 
You mean the Lexicon blocks? They haven't seen any new updates. I feel pretty done with these, can't really see how I could improve them.

The X88R Lukather preset is coming when Cygnus leaves the beta stage. I've done more proper emulations of the Eventide H3000 and TC1210 during the last couple of weeks, so it's coming!
i mean the X88R Lukather preset,thank you
 
These are great. It's wonderful to have my circular delay working properly again. I'm grateful for those who contribute.
 
Again, they are blocks, not presets. If you look at the file extension, you will see that they're not sysex, but blk-files.

Try this:
  1. Download them.
  2. Put them in your "Documents\Fractal Audio\Axe-Edit III\blocks" folder.
  3. Open Axe-Edit.
  4. Put 2 multitap delay blocks your preset. Preferable in parallel to the dry signal.
  5. Select the first one.
  6. Down to the left, there is a window called "Block Library". Click it. A list pops up, select "Pan Delays".
  7. Repeat the process for the second multitap delay block, but select "Circular Delays" instead.
I had to drag them onto the blocks for them to actually show in my library in Axe Edit but it works. Thanks!
 
Could someone be that kind that would add screen shots on that multi delay block, because i would like to try these settings on Axe FX II also?
 
You can download FracTool here

FracTool doesn't open blocks, you need a preset containing these blocks. I attach a preset that only contains these two MultiDelay blocks.

Drag the preset over FracTool, and click over one of the two blocks. A popup window will display all the parameters

View attachment 82527
Ok nice thanks i will try that soon then.
 
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